The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on October 05, 2020, 11:32:07 PM ---Please. We ask this much of people all the time. Or have you never heard of a military draft? Hell, forget a draft, by your logic we couldn't even ask for volunteers. Also I could really care less about what Uriel says or doesn't say. Uriel is right about some things and wrong about others, just like anyone else.
--- End quote ---
You asked a question and I gave you a direct answer. The denouement is how Jim makes sure you understand the narrative as he's written it. I just quoted it to you. This is what the WOJ was talking about. That you don't accept it is on you. Ask Jim.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on October 06, 2020, 02:46:07 AM ---You asked a question and I gave you a direct answer. The denouement is how Jim makes sure you understand the narrative as he's written it. I just quoted it to you. This is what the WOJ was talking about. That you don't accept it is on you. Ask Jim.
--- End quote ---
-Just because a character says something in the denouement doesn't meant its the intention of the author as a moral lesson. Frequently it is, but not always.
-Just because the author thinks a thing does not make that thing true. I can reject the opinion of Jim Butcher, assuming that is his opinion. While I frequently agree with Jim, he can be wrong. If he thinks Harry did anything particularly bad in changes, he is wrong in my opinion.
-You appear to have missed the bit where Uriel says he literally saved Molly.
-I also posted the explicit proof that Molly knew about the stakes before she made her decision. She was fully cognizant of the ramifications. And Molly has said she would do it again, and clearly harbors no ill will towards Harry. Additionally, in the denouement you posted we see Harry bashing himself again. Something he scolding for by Shiro in death masks and by Micheal in Skin Game. IIRC, the scolding Micheal gives Harry is in the denouement.
-
flying peach:
--- Quote from: noblehunter on October 05, 2020, 10:12:50 PM ---Two things: one, the entire body of criminal and civil law regarding sexual harassment disagrees with you.
--- End quote ---
Harry never sexually harassed her (he never made unwanted and/or consistent sexual comments or advances towards her).
In addition, there are federal statutes and regulations (and case law from multiple appellate Courts interpreting the federal statutes and regulations) addressing sexual harassment plus fifty states with fifty sets of criminal laws, civil statutes, and case law interpreting those laws. A blanket statement that the entire body of law both criminal and civil disagrees with the op is simply untrue.
--- Quote from: noblehunter on October 05, 2020, 09:46:09 PM --- Even if she was an adult, Harry has a duty of care towards her as her teacher. He should not have led her into danger.
--- End quote ---
He was her teacher; but, more importantly he was her master. The master-servant relationship comes with a whole host of duties towards the apprentice including teaching the apprentice the master's craft. Wizarding is an inherently dangerous profession (witness the number of wardens that died in the vampire wars); and, especially under Harry fighting supernatural powers in defense of humanity is an important part of the profession.
The series suggests that up until Changes, Harry spent too much time trying to protect Molly during her apprenticeship. For instance, he taught her shielding with snowballs instead of baseballs. ( Harry was trained with baseballs thrown at him, Harry's warden boss ex-girlfriend was trained with rocks thrown at her; and, Harry's fairy godmother [if I remember correctly] explicitly told Harry that he had been too soft in training Molly).
--- Quote from: noblehunter on October 05, 2020, 10:12:50 PM ---Two things:...Two, Harry had agreed to be Molly's master. That means he had absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. He threw both aside in letting her come. It doesn't matter if she wanted to or not. What she wanted to was repeatedly break the laws of magic, it was his moral duty to override that desire. Same thing with going to C. I.
--- End quote ---
He did not owe her an absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. For instance, if she practiced black magic then it would have been his duty to turn himself and Molly into the White Council for execution. He accepted the responsibility (risking execution) to supervise, control, and train Molly; but, by the nature of the punishment (his and Molly's execution) it's fairly explicit that he didn't owe her an absolute duty to keep her alive.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Harry never sexually harassed her (he never made unwanted and/or consistent sexual comments or advances towards her).
--- End quote ---
In fact, and it was a huge topic of discussion here was after he soul gazed her, he dumped a bucket of ice water over her, and told her that wasn't the kind of relationship they were going to have. Though from the soul gaze he knew she very much wanted that kind of relationship.
--- Quote ---
The series suggests that up until Changes, Harry spent too much time trying to protect Molly during her apprenticeship. For instance, he taught her shielding with snowballs instead of baseballs. ( Harry was trained with baseballs thrown at him, Harry's warden boss ex-girlfriend was trained with rocks thrown at her; and, Harry's fairy godmother [if I remember correctly] explicitly told Harry that he had been too soft in training Molly).
--- End quote ---
He may have been somewhat soft on her, but one has to understand Lea's point of view also. She was hardening Molly so she could successfully handle a Winter or Summer Lady Mantle.
--- Quote ---He did not owe her an absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. For instance, if she practiced black magic then it would have been his duty to turn himself and Molly into the White Council for execution. He accepted the responsibility (risking execution) to supervise, control, and train Molly, but by the nature of the punishment (his and Molly's execution) it's fairly explicit that he didn't owe her an absolute duty to keep her alive.
--- End quote ---
Molly also stubbornly kept her own council on that as well. In Turn Coat when she looked into both Morgan and Luccio's minds without permission, that could have been a death sentence for both herself and Harry, but she did it anyway. Why? Because she felt it was the right thing to do and worth the risk. Her sense of right and wrong trumped everything.
Why does someone assist someone else to take their own life? Usually it is because that person is in severe pain and is going to face even more pain and eventual death. It usually is an act done out of love, because you agree that death is the better option. Molly knew how Harry felt about being Mab's Winter Knight, about being used by Mab. At that point she had the same view point as Harry, that Mab was pure evil and she'd use Harry to do evil. Death was his only way out of it, but if Mab was tipped off, she'd stop it. So she assisted him, she was the only one who could. She was as ignorant as Harry was about the Fallen Angel who magnified his hopelessness to the point where he wished to die. Yes, he left her to suffer, suicide is selfish in that respect, the one who does it is beyond pain, but the survivors suffer. It was, however a freely given act of love to someone in great pain.
flying peach:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 06, 2020, 04:18:17 AM ---It was, however a freely given act of love to someone in great pain.
--- End quote ---
Molly may be better then Harry deserves.
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