The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.

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Arjan:

--- Quote from: Mira on October 06, 2020, 01:49:48 PM ---Free choice says it all..  Doesn't matter how full the bucket was if it didn't overflow, it was the Fallen that caused the floor to get wet.  Harry was on the ledge, guilt complex in hyper-drive, a Fallen angel came along who knew him well and pushed him off.  Thinking about jumping off isn't the same as being pushed off. Being pushed isn't free will.

--- End quote ---
And besides that it is difficult to see where the fallen influences stops and his free will began. Harry decided how to commit suicide and who to involve. And he decided to bring Molly to CI.

morriswalters:

--- Quote from: Shift8 on October 06, 2020, 03:05:31 AM ----Just because a character says something in the denouement doesn't meant its the intention of the author as a moral lesson. Frequently it is, but not always.

-Just because the author thinks a thing does not make that thing true. I can reject the opinion of Jim Butcher, assuming that is his opinion. While I frequently agree with Jim, he can be wrong. If he thinks Harry did anything particularly bad in changes, he is wrong in my opinion.

-You appear to have missed the bit where Uriel says he literally saved Molly.

-I also posted the explicit proof that Molly knew about the stakes before she made her decision. She was fully cognizant of the ramifications. And Molly has said she would do it again, and clearly harbors no ill will towards Harry. Additionally, in the denouement you posted we see Harry bashing himself again. Something he scolding for by Shiro in death masks and by Micheal in Skin Game. IIRC, the scolding Micheal gives Harry is in the denouement.

-

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Here is your logical position.  The author tells you something about a character he wrote.  And because you don't like what he said, he doesn't know what he's talking about.  Would that sum up your position?

Now since you say Harry did nothing wrong since Molly consented, then it would seem that both you and Mira take the position, that when Nicodemus killed his daughter, that he did nothing morally wrong? Since she assented to his proposition.

And you should do a reality check on your knowledge of law and morality. If you aid someone who is committing a crime then you yourself become part of that crime. Contrarily, if you suborn a crime then you are part of that crime.  That you do, or do not, get caught changes nothing, and the legality of either has nothing to do with their morality. It is perfectly possible for an act to be legal yet immoral and conversely moral yet illegal.

On the basis of personal morality the only questions needed to be asked have nothing to do with what Molly did or did not do. The only question of interest is, did Harry follow his own moral code?
--- Quote from: Turn Coat ---I stared at her for a minute. Then I said, in a very quiet voice, “I always know when I’m being tempted to do something very, very wrong. I start sentences with phrases like, ‘I would never, ever do this—but.’ Or ‘I know this is wrong but.’ It’s the but that tips you off.”

“Harry,” Molly began.

“You broke one of the Laws of Magic, Molly. Willfully. Even though you knew it could cost you your life. Even though you knew that it could also cost mine.” I shook my head and looked away from her. “Hell’s bells, kid. I choose to trust Anastasia Luccio because that’s what people do. You don’t ever get to know for sure what someone thinks of you. What they really feel inside.”
--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Ghost Story ---You’d never know.” “You could do that,” I said, quietly. “And I feel like an utter bastard for asking this of you, grasshopper. But I don’t have anyone else to ask.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 537). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---

Mira:

--- Quote from: Arjan on October 06, 2020, 01:52:47 PM ---And besides that it is difficult to see where the fallen influences stops and his free will began. Harry decided how to commit suicide and who to involve. And he decided to bring Molly to CI.

--- End quote ---

I think it's pretty clear, free will, contemplating suicide, even thinking how best to do it and elude Mab.
But carrying it out?  That's the part where the Fallen Angel comes in, then it becomes committing suicide,that is what she pushed him to. 

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