The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on October 05, 2020, 11:58:25 PM ----Oh come on. The difference there is obvious. If you ask someone to murder someone it is equivalent to doing the murder yourself because you are asking for something that is not justified for the person (or for you) to do. Asking Molly to take risks and kill Harry is perfectly justifiable. It is Harry's life, so he can ask someone to end it if he pleases, especially since he was doing it to prevent his being used by Mab.
-So what. Molly knew back when she was tried the first time that there would be severe consequences if she was found out again.
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And it was Harry’s responsibility to protect her from that and teach her to make better decisions. She was his pupil, this was not the right way to teach her.
--- Quote ---Second, its not clear that she was necessarily going to be caught.
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Is something morally just because you might not get caught?
--- Quote --- Third, its not the cliff situation because her death was not certain.
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Comparisons stop somewhere. Ramirez did not do his job. But ir was certain enough for the comparison to be valid.
--- Quote ---Clearly, as she is still alive. Dresden didn't deprive her of her ability to defend herself or hide from the WC.
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So giving someone a mortal enemy is ok because you can defend yourself? Lea made sure she could handle herself against the enemy she summoned in ghost story for molly but she arranged it as a learning experience for Harry and Molly and accepted the risk.
--- Quote ---Fourth, Molly's situation was beyond Dresden's control and he is not responsible for what the WC does to her.
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He created that situation by his suicide. You might say that was Lasciel’s fault but she only provided the tipping point, it was totally in character.
And he asked her to assist in that. That was his choice.
And as her master she was not beyond his control or responsibility. It was a responsibility he took upon himself
--- Quote ---Fifth, she was going to be up a creek without a paddle anyhow since Dresden was going to be the winter knight if she didnt kill him or wipe his memories.
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Which was totally self centered. He deserted his friends. But that is what a lot of suicides have in common.
--- Quote ---Maybe I am forgetting something, but I would love to know how the WC was supposed to know that Molly was responsible for wipe his memories. Could have been anyone, including Harry. Hell, how did they know Dresden had his memories wiped after making the deal with Mab?
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That was not a violation of the seven laws in that act anyway because Harry invited Molly in his mind. The problem was his suicide. Without Harry the white council would hunt Molly whatever one of them did.
--- Quote ----I am perfectly within my rights to sell you a mortgage you cannot handle so long as you know the details of the mortgage. Its hardly my responsibility to stop someone from being an idiot. I, not anyone else, was born into this world with a responsibility to stop idiots from being idiots.
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In some countries you are not. And this is not about what is legally right, you knowingly create problems for people they can not solve and have dire consequences for them. That is morally wrong. It is predatory behavior whatever you tell yourself.
People who think they have the right to do everything that the law allows them to do and so everything they do is morally right have no conscience.
--- Quote ----There is no such thing as hell. And if there were, it would be more morally reprehensible than anything discussed here.
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It is a metaphor to underline how wrong that behavior is. See it as the einsteinian hell.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 06, 2020, 04:18:17 AM ---In fact, and it was a huge topic of discussion here was after he soul gazed her, he dumped a bucket of ice water over her, and told her that wasn't the kind of relationship they were going to have. Though from the soul gaze he knew she very much wanted that kind of relationship.
He may have been somewhat soft on her, but one has to understand Lea's point of view also. She was hardening Molly so she could successfully handle a Winter or Summer Lady Mantle.
Molly also stubbornly kept her own council on that as well. In Turn Coat when she looked into both Morgan and Luccio's minds without permission, that could have been a death sentence for both herself and Harry, but she did it anyway. Why? Because she felt it was the right thing to do and worth the risk. Her sense of right and wrong trumped everything.
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And whose responsibility was it to do something about that?
--- Quote ---Why does someone assist someone else to take their own life? Usually it is because that person is in severe pain and is going to face even more pain and eventual death. It usually is an act done out of love, because you agree that death is the better option. Molly knew how Harry felt about being Mab's Winter Knight, about being used by Mab. At that point she had the same view point as Harry, that Mab was pure evil and she'd use Harry to do evil. Death was his only way out of it, but if Mab was tipped off, she'd stop it. So she assisted him, she was the only one who could. She was as ignorant as Harry was about the Fallen Angel who magnified his hopelessness to the point where he wished to die. Yes, he left her to suffer, suicide is selfish in that respect, the one who does it is beyond pain, but the survivors suffer. It was, however a freely given act of love to someone in great pain.
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Mira:
--- Quote ---And whose responsibility was it to do something about that?
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And he tried, that is all he could do, you talk like Harry ignored Molly and let her run wild. Far from
it. Yeah, maybe he threw snowballs at her instead of rocks, but his borderline illegal mental sparing with her saved her from the Corpstaker. Luccio could repel rocks, but she lost her original body because she couldn't repel a mental attack.
As to assisting Harry's suicide. Harry cannot be held responsible because a Fallen Angel had messed with his mind, he was in severe mental pain in that moment. He reached out to the only person who could help him. Molly loved him and what is more felt his pain and agreed with him. She wasn't some silly child easily led astray, she knew exactly what she was doing. Yes, the guilt from that brought her pain, but you know what? She accepts the responsibility for what she did, if she didn't, she'd resent and hold it against Harry, she doesn't. And no, Molly isn't some kind of forgiving saint.
Arjan:
The whisper of the fallen gave Uriel enough room to interfere but whether it absolves him from all responsibility is debatable. It is completely in line with his nature and he could have done it without the whisper as well, it just removed the free choice to do so. Which is a big thing but Harry filled most of the bucket, the fallen just added a few drops.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 06, 2020, 10:57:57 AM ---The whisper of the fallen gave Uriel enough room to interfere but whether it absolves him from all responsibility is debatable. It is completely in line with his nature and he could have done it without the whisper as well, it just removed the free choice to do so. Which is a big thing but Harry filled most of the bucket, the fallen just added a few drops.
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Free choice says it all.. Doesn't matter how full the bucket was if it didn't overflow, it was the Fallen that caused the floor to get wet. Harry was on the ledge, guilt complex in hyper-drive, a Fallen angel came along who knew him well and pushed him off. Thinking about jumping off isn't the same as being pushed off. Being pushed isn't free will.
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