The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
We Now Know What/Who Mac Is
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 20, 2020, 10:36:44 AM ---They had lawful authority, they just didn’t know they had, and that destroys any case against Harry unless Marcone denies that they had that authority, which would put him in Mab’s bad books, he organised this with her to get revenge over Nicodemus. It wasn’t a bank job, it was a con job. Here’s a hint look at what Skin Game is slang for, otherwise under your interpretation that novel is called Bank Bust.
--- End quote ---
Marcone does not have the right to approve Harry assaulting anyone.
Conspiracy Theorist:
Marcone can and did give lawful authority for the group to be in the bank vault, everything that flows out of that is the individual responsibility of the participants. This group is then set upon by guards, who were unaware that they had lawful authority to be there.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Arjan on September 19, 2020, 10:12:56 PM ---Good and evil is not the same as lawful and unlawful.
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I agree with this so much. (I'm the one saying Harry is guilty of murder, but what he did wasn't evil; I think what he did was good). I noticed years ago a trend to equate the two in political and/or current event debates. Just no.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---“Without authority”, this was a set up masterminded by Marcone and Mab. Marcone was the owner of the.
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This is an argument that Marcone had no right of self defense. Not that Harry had permission to be there. If he had permission to be there, then he couldn't have entered Hades. The way wouldn't have lead to Hades.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---no intent to commit a burglary or theft within the vault. If they had stolen some of Ferrovax’s stuff in his sub vault yes, but they didn’t.
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Murphy asked Harry if he wanted her to go with him to rob a Greek god. He responded "Burgle, technically." Harry intended to commit the forcible felony of burglary in Marcone's bank.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---Harvey wasn’t a kidnapping by Harry, he used neither threat nor physical force, Harvey offered no resistance after Harry interposed himself between Harvey and Tessa’s Goons gunfire. No forcible kidnapping of Harvey, no murder charge against Harry. If Harvey hadn’t relented and Harry had to knock out Harvey to spirit him away then yes that would have been forcible kidnapping.
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That's not what I said. I said Harvey died because of Harry's felonious activity. Felony murder, generally, is the legal rule that one meets the mens rea requirement for murder when one's actions cause another's death. I also said there is specific case law in Illinois that supports the application of the felony murder principle to Harvey's death.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---At best Harry set off some fireworks, not a deadly weapon, is that a felony or misdemeanour.
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I know of a case where a woman was charged with adw for hitting someone with a shoe. Lot's of things can be considered deadly weapons. See generally https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kby5pn/a-brief-history-of-the-legal-definition-of-deadly-weapon. The case of pepper spray as a deadly weapon is particularly apropos.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---Binders guys did use deadly weapons against the police, but they are not “people” , they are not capable of committing a crime.
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Is it likely that someone was going to be killed over the course of the heist? If the answer is yes, then felony murder applies in Illinois. (Or at least that element of it was).
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---The handcuffs were never stolen, they were in the custody of the guards at all times.
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I can't tell if you're joking or not. If you're not, tell it to the judge.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---The guards were confined to a controlled space but there was no criminal motive for their confinement (lawful authority to be in the vault) so they weren’t kidnapped either.
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Assuming without conceding that they were lawfully present because Marcone consented to their presence, the guards didn't consent to their confinement. Marcone can no more consent to the guards confinement than he can give consent for his prostitutes to have sex with Johns.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---Tilley can tell if someone is lying, Harry can admit the truth to Tilley, because all he has done is let some fireworks off. Bad Harry. I suspect Jim had this in mind when he created Tilley as a character.
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Harry committed a laundry list of crimes. Telling Tilley the truth carries with it great risk of being charged and convicted of those crimes.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---[1]Deidre Killed the guard, but [2]only she is responsible.
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2. Not legally.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 10:40:32 PM ---Harvey was murdered by Tessa who is still at large, and the best person who can help track her down and bring her to justice is Harry.
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This is true. It also doesn't absolve Harry of any legal liability. It's not relevant to the laws of Illinois. It could be relevant to their enforcement.
Putting the jurisdictional arguments of crimes committed in the Nevernever aside for a moment, Harry would also be criminally culpable for the deaths of Deirdre and Ascher.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Murphy asked Harry if he wanted her to go with him to rob a Greek god. He responded "Burgle, technically." Harry intended to commit the forcible felony of burglary in Marcone's bank.
--- End quote ---
Not really, he didn't take anything from Marcone's bank, it was just the path he had to go through to get to the vault that belonged to Hades.
--- Quote ---Assuming without conceding that they were lawfully present because Marcone consented to their presence, the guards didn't consent to their confinement. Marcone can no more consent to the guards confinement than he can give consent for his prostitutes to have sex with Johns.
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Which he most likely can and does.
This was never about what Harry did or didn't do, he was being used by Mab, Marcone, and Hades to get revenge on Nic.. The whole robbery happened because it was allowed to happen, so no real robbery. In the course of events one of Marcone's guards was killed by one of Nic's people.. Marcone
accepted the weregild, he and Harry were even. Perhaps he wants a little more revenge so he is siccing Rudolph on Murphy because Harry did get away with some serious loot, i.e. weapons of mass destruction.. Which if Hades is right, could only be done by someone clever enough and strong enough to use them.
Conspiracy Theorist:
Nope, you are having to make to many reaches to get to where you need to be, and ignore Marcone’s role in the proceedings, without that you would have an argument if you could overcome the other issues. You couldn’t build a case on this even with Harry’s confession.
The deaths of Deidre and Ascher occurred out of US Jurisdiction, and it is a matter for the relevant sovereign government i.e. Hades, to deal with their deaths. Not the CPD or the FBI, there is no valid principle of extra-territorially, the deaths simply did not occur in the US jurisdiction, and neither was a US citizen, nor a US Resident. Deidre is older than the US, Ascher is Australian. Neither body is in the US.
Goodness, next thing you will be accusing Harry of the homicide of Blood on his Soul, despite him (a) not being human, or (b) he appears to have risen from the dead (so only attempted murder then).
I would point out that Rudy doesn’t appear to have any DNA evidence which would place Harry in the Vault and he should have left some, which along with the shed Giant Praying Mantisoid DNA and Genowskwa DNA would indicate Marcone got their first. There is no corroboration of Harry ‘s Confession.
Of course the way out of this is to ask Michael Carpenter to swear on a Bible in Court, as under your premise he is as guilty as Harry, but rarely those who swear “by almighty god” are actually on speaking terms with HIM. What’s the odds jury selection REALLY breaks Harry and Michaels way?.
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