The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
We Now Know What/Who Mac Is
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 18, 2020, 03:46:19 PM ---If push comes to shove, Harry can give evidence of the events leading up to Harvey’s death and point the finger at Tessa, in the wake of Battle Ground, a Denarian culprit will be believable, when before it was not, remember Tilly has a minor practitioners gift, he knows when someone is lying or not. Harry can tell him the truth, be believed and not be institutionalised.
--- End quote ---
Are you familiar with felony murder? Because Harry's guilty of it in the death of Harvey and the security guard. He also burgled a bank, probably.
--- Quote from: bigdangmoose on September 19, 2020, 03:36:00 AM ---Jim has either set her up to find her new click and return in the future with new friends to help in the BAT, or he is setting her up to go in a blaze of glory and gore. Which would be perfect for MM, a story about how much his decisions changed the world, for good and bad.
--- End quote ---
This or a pretty close approximation of it.
Conspiracy Theorist:
I think you will find that Harry was not part of a common purpose with regard to Harvey, indeed he was going all out to save him.
As regards the bank robbery, there was no intention to steal anything from within the Bank, there was some damage to the premises, but the owner is not eager to press charges, and indeed might be considered to be a conspirator.
The Bank Guard, again it may be considered that again this was not part of a common purpose, the other guards can testify that they were indeed moved to prevent their death or injury. Again their employer is not eager to see charges pressed, and again might be considered a conspirator.
This is why I believe Rudy isn’t working for Marcone, the evidence that Rudy has is circumstantial obtained from Traffic cameras. I bet the guards are saying that the perpetrators were all men of average height and nondescript appearance (which actually fits Grey and Nicky), all the internal cameras ceased to work, and there is evidence that Harvey was alive during the robbery, as he quite clearly accessed the retinal scanner during the robbery. If you can’t connect Harry to the robbery, it makes it difficult to pin Harvey’s death on Harry.
Someone is trying to find out what was stolen from Marcone’s bank and how it connects to Nicky’s public losses. This was in in Harry’s city, Marcone’s security is White Council proof, so the White Council resorted to money, bribing Rudy.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Are you familiar with felony murder? Because Harry's guilty of it in the death of Harvey and the security guard. He also burgled a bank, probably.
--- End quote ---
Harry didn't murder Harvey, or the security guard, but he was on scene. "Probably" isn't proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 07:29:37 PM ---I think you will find that Harry was not part of a common purpose with regard to Harvey, indeed he was going all out to save him.
--- End quote ---
In 1973, the Illinois Supreme Court went with the proximate cause theory of liability for felony murder. Trying to stop the crime, one cop shot another in the back. The defendant was found guilty.
The bank job was the cause in fact for Harvey's death. Proximate cause is arguable. Therefore Harry's guilt under a felony murder theory of liability is arguable in that case. If I was trying to prosecute Harry, I'd argue the precedent is applicable because Tessa killed Harvey trying to stop the crime. If I was defending Harry, I'd try to distinguish the case because Tessa intended for Harvey to die whereas the cop accidentally killed the other cop.
That's all assuming the 1973 case is good law. I'm not going to shepardize it. I don't have a LexisNexis subscription.
Based on the facts, it's arguable whether Harry is criminally liable for the death of Harvey. I think the answer is probably yes.
The bank guard is a different story. Harry's guilty.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 19, 2020, 07:29:37 PM ---As regards the bank robbery, there was no intention to steal anything from within the Bank.
--- End quote ---
I cut the quote there because I don't see how any of that is legally relevant. (I also don't think that Marcone hired Rudolph, so I'm not arguing with you there).
A death resulting from a act while "he or she is attempting or committing a forcible felony" is guilty of murder.
--- Quote ---"Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
--- End quote ---
Emphasis added.
--- Quote ---Burglary.
(a) A person commits burglary when without authority he or she knowingly enters or without authority remains within a building, housetrailer, watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof, with intent to commit therein a felony or theft.
--- End quote ---
Emphasis added.
Harry burgled the bank. He intended to kidnap the guards, maybe it was an aggravated kidnapping, therein. He intended to burgle Hades vault from the vault (good luck arguing that one to a jury).
Harry kidnapped guards.
Harry assaulted the guards with fireworks. Almost certainly assault with a deadly weapon.
His fireworks use could have been considered arson.
They took the guards handcuffs. That's robbery.
There are plenty of forcible felonies for prosecutors to hang their hats on.
The Illinois Supreme Court has ruled that if it is "contemplated that violence might be necessary to enable the conspirators to carry out their common purpose" then it's felony murder. Harry loaded the magazines. Harry knew he was working with sociopathic murderers. Harry knew how Marcone would respond based on what Justine observed in Even Hand. Harry knew he was going to use violence. Use of violence was more than complicated. Harry meets this requirement.
I have no question that Harry is guilty of felony murder in regards to the bank guard.
--- Quote from: Mira on September 19, 2020, 08:22:33 PM --- Harry didn't murder Harvey, or the security guard, but he was on scene. "Probably" isn't proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
--- End quote ---
So you are unfamiliar with felony murder.
I said probably because I hadn't looked up the burglary statute. I was fairly certain Harry had committed burglary without having looked it up. Turns out I was right. It's not a question of fact. It's a question of law.
ClintACK:
Unfortunately, yeah, Harry is guilty of felony-rule murder with respect to the security guard.
There probably isn't enough evidence to convict him of it, but he can't just tell Tilly everything and get out of it. He was indeed part of a bunch of felonies -- trespassing, breaking and entering, kidnapping, etc. And the death of a guard was a foreseeable consequence.
Of course, Harry's been committing actual crimes throughout the series. In Storm Front, *we* understand his violent assault on Marcone's restaurant -- in front of dozens of innocent bystander witnesses -- but there's no *legal* justification for it.
And it just gets worse from there. Imagine if there were evidence that he set the fire at Bianca's in Grave Peril. In Dead Beat, he commits grand theft dinosaur.
Working on a bank heist with legitimately evil folks... there's a reason Harry balked at that.
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