The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Peace Talks: Who are the signatories of the Accords?

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Arjan:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on June 07, 2020, 08:27:03 AM ---Arjan, that might be your theory. But it is conjecture. You can't prove Nicodemus was lying because there is no evidence to say he was/is working with the Red Court. So best to stick to facts or qualify your statements e.g. Nicodemus was probably lying because...[Evidence A]. Saying an absolute statment outright (like Nicodemus lied when...) when you don't qualify or provide evidence is both poor argument and derails the conversation.

--- End quote ---
There is a really small chance that he was not lying on that specific point (it is well attested that he must be lying somewhere in every speech) but really do you want to bet your soul on it?

His story is specially crafted for what he knows about Harry. We know he lies often. Do your math.

--- Quote ---Which isn't to say that he might have lied when attempting to recruit Harry. But as I outline in my other thread, https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53453.0.html, I think Nicodemus would benfit greatly from the destruction of the Red Court. As would several other villains.

"If something is too good to be true, it is probably false" is a really strange argument to make in the setting of the Dresden Files. Michael Carpenter is "too good to be true" as is Uriel, Heaven etc. Are you saying that they don't exist or that they are in fact evil?

--- End quote ---
If it comes from a known con man

Snark Knight:

--- Quote from: Arjan on June 07, 2020, 07:01:20 AM ---Except when he is saying something to influence you it is always safer to assume he is lying. He may use truth to build up to something but the crucial thing is a lie. There is no reason to assume Nicodemus is even interested in the reds that much. They are not part of his story and the suffering they cause can only help him. But there is all reason for Nicodemus to make Harry think he can be an ally against Harry’s most Important and hated enemy at that time. He probably knows about Susan and Harry so his statements about the reds are too much in line with what Harry wants. If something is too good to be true it is probably false.

--- End quote ---

He wouldn't be as dangerous if it was easy to tell the truths from the lies - Forthill mentions at one point that it sometimes takes centuries for church historians to untangle them.

But all the interactions in Small Favor have to be viewed through the lens that Nicodemus knows about Nemesis and the Outsiders' agenda to break in and cause Empty Night, while Harry doesn't yet at that point. If he was real about anything, it was anger that some of his were playing for the other side. I think Hell and the Outsiders have competing visions for what kind of apocalypse they want.

With the Red Court pretty much publicly in cahoots with the Outsiders, there's every reason to believe Nicodemus was down with eliminating them. Whatever marginal gain the Denarians get out of the global suffering caused by the Reds can be replaced easily enough that it's not worth leaving an adversary's asset alone.

TrueMonk:
If all your competitors within your own organisation are black court vampires and you know the perfect spells to control/destroy/whatever it is, then you (Mavra) has a really good shot at becoming the leader. I guess that was what g33k meant.

At least that was what I thought :-)

g33k:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on June 07, 2020, 08:27:03 AM --- ...
G33k - I would be surprised if she became Queen Mavra. I think that would have been noticed by now. And something tells me that the Darkhallow is only open to mortals - other supernatural's would have to use different means I think. I can't back that up...but it feels right. Something to do with the Hecatean Hags in Welcome to the Jungle. But even if so, I think Mavra is the proxy or servant (or both) for a being far greater. My guess is Drakul. But whoever it is, I think they wanted the Word of Kemmler and now they have it. Who knows why ...
--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: TrueMonk on June 07, 2020, 06:44:09 PM --- If all your competitors within your own organisation are black court vampires and you know the perfect spells to control/destroy/whatever it is, then you (Mavra) has a really good shot at becoming the leader. I guess that was what g33k meant.

At least that was what I thought :-)
--- End quote ---

TrueMonk has understood my point.

I wasn't suggesting she'd become "Queen Mavra" via a Darkhallow -- a demigoddess -- just the most-powerful (by far) noble of the Black Court, because she's a powerful warlock/BCV who knows Kemmlerian necromancy.

WoJ says the BCV survivors of the "Stoker-pocalypse" are the most poweful, the most ruthless, the most practical.

With Mavra as the undisputed leader -- to prevent a bunch of internecine backstabbing, and even the mutual fear of such -- they could unite again.  Begin the quiet process of re-building their numbers, strengthening and restoring their power-base, etc... all very quietly, carefully; no more Constance Bushnell's!
 
Plus:  Mavra showing up again (under aegis of a major Accorded event) would cause all sorts of anger & pain for Harry, so  of course  it will happen.

I can imagine her smirk as she publicly thanks Harry Dresden for giving her the power she needed to re-unite the Black Court.
 

Yuillegan:
Arjan - I disagree. What evidence do you have that it was a small chance? Where is it "well arrested" that he lies in every speech?

And why would I bet my soul? What does that have to do with anything?

We know he lies. So does literally every human.

Nicodemus, strictly speaking, isn't a con man. Also, if it comes from an unknown con man does that then mean "if it's too good to be true, it probably IS" ? Do you see the flaw in that argument?

And nothing so far proves that he lies about what he said to Dresden. Even if Harry had taken up the Coin, he would have never followed Nicodemus fully and would have expected his aid in defeating the Reds. And Nicodemus (even assuming he didn't care about destroying the Reds) would have likely aided Dresden as it would have meant Dresden would have owed him and remained loyal. Marcone does the same thing all the time with Harry, and tbh it has worked out very well for him. Harry isn't exactly loyal to him, yet Marcone has risen from a powerful mob boss to a super-powerful crime lord with supernatural connections, able to take on even modest powers. Storm Front Marcone is nothing compared to current Marcone. I imagine Nicodemus was much the same, only he has been at it 2000 years and is less about acquiring personal power as much as completing an unknown, highly personal mission.

Snark Knight - Exactly right. Nicodemus is dangerous, as are the Fallen, because of their ability to lie well. It is precisely because he only lies when it will have maximum effect, rather than an endless stream of bull****, that makes him so formidable. In all of his many interactions with Dresden, particularly in Skin Game when they are working together, he actually lies very few times at all. He omits details and is often vague, but he isn't a twisty as a Fae either.

And I think you're on the money about the competing interests of Hell and Outside. From what Jim has said, Outsiders want the party to end completely. Which isn't actually what Hell wants (although he hasn't said what it IS that Hell wants - I think it's domination versus obliteration).

G33k - Fair enough, my mistake. It certainly would give her a serious advantage. I am curious though if Blampires can actually use Necromancy. So far we have only seen mortals do it. Which isn't to say they can't of course. But Harry seems to think the magic that Vamps use is different in quality to Necromancy. But then again, much of that sort of thing might be outdated by now. It will be interesting to see how it has played out. It would be very awesome if the Black Court were secretly building up in quiet. Because apparently that is entirely against their M.O. - they gathered power quickly and brutally when they did attempt to rise (which scared the stuffing out of everyone). I think it would be a seriously terrifying moment for Harry to realise the return of the Black Court was imminent.

Isn't it interesting that we haven't seen Mavra since Dead Beat? And now she shows up when the White Council is about to take a big hit? Also, she often shows up when Cowl is around. Not always (unless she was in diguise in White Night). Also, ghouls also always seem to show up when she is around. I wonder what the relationship between the Vampires and the Ghouls is?

 

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