The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Peace Talks: Who are the signatories of the Accords?

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g33k:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on June 08, 2020, 12:44:01 AM --- ...  I am curious though if Blampires can actually use Necromancy. So far we have only seen mortals do it. Which isn't to say they can't of course.
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Well, Mavra has shown herself to be a pretty competent & potent warlock already.  I think she can do most things that a mortal wizard can.  Given what Harry says to her about the Word of Kemmler, I'd think Blamps have innate ties to necromancy, and can use it readily... if anything, more easily than other sorts of magic!

Snark Knight:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on June 08, 2020, 12:44:01 AM ---From what Jim has said, Outsiders want the party to end completely. Which isn't actually what Hell wants (although he hasn't said what it IS that Hell wants - I think it's domination versus obliteration).

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My suspicion is that the Fallen are actually primarily interested in saving their own asses from the Outsiders. I think the core of the dispute between Heaven and Hell in the DV is that Hell is willing to use literal scorched earth tactics to win, vs Heaven insisting on threading the needle of a much more difficult strategy to keep the Outsiders Outside without catastrophic damage to Creation to do it. Or, put another way, whether humanity and the creation are worth risking existence itself, including their own?

It's the best fit I can find for Deirdre saying they're "saving the world" at a moment when she has no reasons left to lie. She's going to her death, she knows there's no way they're going to recruit Harry, and she's expecting Nic to eliminate him shortly after she's gone anyway. It also fits with Nic thinking he might someday be a saint. I think most of the Denarians who are willing partners have bought into the idea that a pretty good chance of saving a battered fraction of something is better than gambling on a long shot of a clean win when losing means Empty Night.

Yuillegan:
Not to be pedantic, but I don't think she is a Warlock. She is a Wizard but I think the fact the is already a vampire precludes her from becoming a corrupted Wizard - which is what a Warlock is. She isn't mortal enough.

I agree though that there is a link between Blampires and Necromancy. I suspect that it was involved in their creation which is also why they are particularly vulnerable to it. Perhaps it also gives them an advantage as Necromancers. Curiously though, we have never seen Mavra or another Vampire of any Court use Necromancy. Which says to me they might not be able to at all.


SK - we are on the same page I think. And it's a fair argument from their perspective. Of course that sort of argument doesn't sound so good if you're a mortal. But hey, we all have to pay a price right? My only other thought is that perhaps the Fallen are resentful that mortals have Free Will and create spin-off universes, whereas they themselves cannot. Perhaps it's both!

Arjan:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on June 08, 2020, 12:44:01 AM ---Arjan - I disagree. What evidence do you have that it was a small chance? Where is it "well arrested" that he lies in every speech?

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Their whole career as described in the books. They can’t help it, it is in their nature. It is what the fallen wants them to do. They even do it when it is in their best interest not to lie. Nicodemus would have had the spear if he had not lied about his goals. Harry’s plan in small favor and skin game depended on the Nicodemus betraying him. It is a safe bet.

Harry’s plans in skin game and small favor are based on it.

--- Quote ---And why would I bet my soul? What does that have to do with anything?

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That is what happens if you start believing what Nicodemus says, it is what the fallen are after. Just like everything what Uriel does is about saving souls everything the fallen do is about souls as well.

--- Quote ---We know he lies. So does literally every human.

--- End quote ---
Except he has that coin for two thousand years. It made him kill his own daughter. He is not his own man anymore whatever he says because lying starts with lying to yourself. He lies more than humans do. It is his default mode of operation. He believes in it. Both Harry and Vadderung assume he will do so for everything important.

Every truth he says is just a buildup to the important lie.

--- Quote ---Nicodemus, strictly speaking, isn't a con man. Also, if it comes from an unknown con man does that then mean "if it's too good to be true, it probably IS" ? Do you see the flaw in that argument?

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It is a very good way not to get conned. Because that is what the fallen do. They offer you that nice and shiny with all kinds of powers and enslave you.

That is a con game.

--- Quote ---And nothing so far proves that he lies about what he said to Dresden. Even if Harry had taken up the Coin, he would have never followed Nicodemus fully and would have expected his aid in defeating the Reds.

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Maybe in the beginning but then his goals would shift when the fallen would get more and more control of him and in the end he would kill Maggie.

Because that is what the fallen do. It is the main reason he goes to Mab in Changes and not to Lasciel. That is what he told her anyway. Even if Nicodemus promises to save Maggie he can not be relied upon.

Nicodemus goal is not the reds, it is Harry’s soul. Nowhere in the books Nicodemus does anything that proves he cares about the reds one way or another?

To understand the fallen think Faust. It is the deal with the devil situation. Also the reason why they fell. It is all about humanity, they want it to fail.

One soul at a time or a lot of them through the misery they spread.

--- Quote ---And Nicodemus (even assuming he didn't care about destroying the Reds) would have likely aided Dresden as it would have meant Dresden would have owed him and remained loyal.

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The devil may promise you all kind of things if you do a deal with him. That does not mean he cares about these things. Nicodemus would promise Harry the world if he took up the coin. But his goal would be Harry’s soul. Not the reds.

And Nicodemus wouldn’t care about his promises either.

--- Quote --- Marcone does the same thing all the time with Harry, and tbh it has worked out very well for him. Harry isn't exactly loyal to him, yet Marcone has risen from a powerful mob boss to a super-powerful crime lord with supernatural connections, able to take on even modest powers. Storm Front Marcone is nothing compared to current Marcone. I imagine Nicodemus was much the same, only he has been at it 2000 years and is less about acquiring personal power as much as completing an unknown, highly personal mission.

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Marcone and Harry have soulgazed. They both know exactly what kind of person the other one is.


--- Quote ---Snark Knight - Exactly right. Nicodemus is dangerous, as are the Fallen, because of their ability to lie well. It is precisely because he only lies when it will have maximum effect, rather than an endless stream of bull****, that makes him so formidable. In all of his many interactions with Dresden, particularly in Skin Game when they are working together, he actually lies very few times at all. He omits details and is often vague, but he isn't a twisty as a Fae either.

And I think you're on the money about the competing interests of Hell and Outside. From what Jim has said, Outsiders want the party to end completely. Which isn't actually what Hell wants (although he hasn't said what it IS that Hell wants - I think it's domination versus obliteration).

G33k - Fair enough, my mistake. It certainly would give her a serious advantage. I am curious though if Blampires can actually use Necromancy. So far we have only seen mortals do it. Which isn't to say they can't of course. But Harry seems to think the magic that Vamps use is different in quality to Necromancy. But then again, much of that sort of thing might be outdated by now. It will be interesting to see how it has played out. It would be very awesome if the Black Court were secretly building up in quiet. Because apparently that is entirely against their M.O. - they gathered power quickly and brutally when they did attempt to rise (which scared the stuffing out of everyone). I think it would be a seriously terrifying moment for Harry to realise the return of the Black Court was imminent.

Isn't it interesting that we haven't seen Mavra since Dead Beat? And now she shows up when the White Council is about to take a big hit? Also, she often shows up when Cowl is around. Not always (unless she was in diguise in White Night). Also, ghouls also always seem to show up when she is around. I wonder what the relationship between the Vampires and the Ghouls is?

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Yuillegan:
Nicodemus is not a Fallen. We are talking about him, not them. So "their" and "they" don't apply. The Fallen doesn't necessarily wish them to lie. We don't really know what the Fallen want apart from corrupting mortals. We don't know why. It's never been addressed. And you can see in my post above and in Snark Knight's what our theories are about they.

Harry's plan in Skin Game was based off the fact he and the Denarians are allies of convenience, but not friends. Harry was forced to work with them and he has a highly antagonistic relationship with them. If he didn't I doubt they would have betrayed him as they want him on side. Recruiting is what they do. Much the same in Small Favor, the main difference is that Harry is actively working against them. Both times Harry is betting they underestimate him.

Not sure how me believing Nicodemus will lose me my very own soul. I assume you are being hypothetical and using the royal "we"? But again, it's about Nicodemus not about the Fallen.

Actually, that negates his choice and shows you don't understand one of the central tenets of the series. Nicodemus made his own choice. Anduriel did not make him do anything. Because in the Dresden Files, no being can make a mortal choose to do something. Nicodemus chose to kill his daughter. I agree that he lies to himself. And that he probably lies more than some humans. Not more than most. He isn't a compulsive liar. Most of what he says is true. His default mode of operation (as you put it) is doing whatever it takes to achieve his mission. Lying is one of those things. But so does every character. The only characters who cannot (unless compromised by magic) are the Fae. The Angels seem to have enough choice in terms of choosing when to lie. Which makes interactions with them FAR more dangerous because of their incredible knowledge and perspective. I don't argue that he uses truth to support more powerful lies. But you would have it that he lies constantly and compulsively. He doesn't lie in every speech or interaction, and you are still yet to provide even a shred of text to support your claim.

I think you don't understand the phrase your using, or what my argument was. So I will endevour to be clear.
You said that "If it's too good to be true, then it probably isn't true" and meant that in terms of when a known "con man" is talking to you.
I am saying if you are unaware that the con man is in fact a con man, why does that mean that whatever they are telling you is more likely to be true? Why is their truthfulness dependent on whether you know they are a con man or not? You're argument doesn't make sense.

I have read the books and am perfectly aware of how the Fallen operate - based on Harry's encounters and perspective. But how they operate is irrelevant to your point about when to trust a known or unknown con artist. Not to mention, you keep conflating the Fallen with the Denarians. A Denarian is the combination of the Fallen in the Coin and the human bearer. A Fallen is the Fallen Angel that no longer resides in Heaven. The Fallen, and indeed Denarians, may run cons. But Nicodemus is not a Fallen. He is the human part of the Denarian, which is a title and an office. Not a being. Nicodemus doesn't go round pretending to be different people and running various scams. He doesn't need to. He introduces himself as Nicodemus, and does whatever he has to to get what he wants. He might lie or trick from time to time, but he isn't what is considered a con artist, which is a type of professional scammer. It isn't his profession or his office. He is a leader of a a pretty nasty group that is trying to cause chaos and misery, also while saving the world (whatever that means to them).

Pure speculation again. Why would Nicodemus stop helping Harry with the Reds? Once he finished with them I imagine he would try and convince Harry to help him with his longer game. But as you can see he doesn't force any of the Denarians to stay with him. Tessa and her lot choose to do other things. Choice is important to a bunch of beings that felt they were denied it. Lash makes that very clear. And why would any of that lead Dresden to killing his daughter, just because Nicodemus did? Where are you getting that? In no way has it ever been implied that Harry would end up murdering his child.

He goes to Mab because he thinks that's the easiest one to get out of. He commits suicide immediately after. If he had chosen the Denarians I think he would have still killed the Reds, Jim says he would have been successful whatever option he took. The main difference would be what the series would have become. Let alone Harry the Necromancer or Harry the Necrogod. What Harry tells Mab is partly true. But he omitted his plan to kill himself (as he had wiped his memory) and was unaware of the Fallen's influence in pushing that plan. He might have actually chosen something else if the Fallen hadn't tried to remove him.

I have never said Nicodemus' main goal is the Reds. But it is a goal to remove them, at some point. He actually tells his reasons to Dresden. My other thread that I referenced in my previous post discusses those reasons and the why. But to summarise, for someone who is trying to "save the world" or perhaps end it, the Red Court are a major problem in the long term as they likely didn't want to be ruled by Nicodemus (if that was a goal) or destroyed like the rest of the universe (if that was his goal). And how do you know that his main goal is Harry's soul? Why do you even think he cares? From what we have in the series and WOJ, it seems his end goals involve the destruction of humanity and perhaps the universe.

The Fallen may have wanted to Fall but we don't have much to go on. What is clear is that they found it abhorrent to serve TWG and have his Will and rules govern them. Lash tells Harry this early on. Not only that, but as Snark Knight and I were discussing above it is possible that the Fallen may have an issue that mortals have Free Will and the danger that poses to Reality and by extension, themselves. They don't want the Old Ones and the Outsiders to end the universe. Except for perhaps certain rebel Fallen who just want to burn the house down. But Hell quite possibly seem humanity as a massive security risk.

Nicodemus doesn't fight for souls. The Fallen do. The Angels do. Nicodemus just wants Harry on his team rather than against him. But even he is very prepared to kill Harry if necessary. Nicodemus isn't the Devil. Don't confuse the two.

The Devil cares about souls. But this is because, as Jim puts it, "he has a argument with GOD". The second part of that quote also says that in order to have an argument you have to have a universe (which puts limits on the Devil) and so in some ways, Nicodemus is more dangerous to the universe than the Devil. Which implies all sorts of bad things.

Nicodemus doesn't have to care about his promises. But if he wanted Harry to work for him, he is more likely to honour those promises. And he DID want Harry to work for him. I quite suspect if Harry were more agreeable he would find Nicodemus a very different type of colleague. Which doesn't make him good.

Indeed, I suspect it would be easier for Nicodemus to convince Harry if he knew him better. It might even be easier if Dresden knew Nicodemus' soul (depending on what's in there). Marcone has convinced Harry that he is worth working with from time to time because there is some good still in him, and because he is better than the alternative (which is chaos). Harry isn't stupid though and knows eventually Marcone will become too great a threat. Regardless, it would be to Nicodemus' benefit to honour his promises to Harry about the Reds both because the Reds were a problem to his long-term plans and because he wanted Dresden's loyalty. And Dresden as an ally is a very powerful weapon to have. As many, many characters have realised. 

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