The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Elaine, Trojan Horse? "It was the knife..."
Bad Alias:
Harry complains that the Council isn't doing enough to find all the kids going warlock. He expects the Council to locate some random kid developing powers, but he wasn't able to stop A KID HE KNOWS AND WHOSE HOUSE HE OCCASIONALLY SLEEPS AT from going warlock.
It turns out it's pretty hard. Whether it happened "right under Harry's nose" is a debate about what that phrase means, not Morris's point.
Molly didn't go to Dresden BECAUSE of the hero worship thing. It's stated in the text.
Rashid probably didn't know Molly was going to do black magic until it was too late to stop her or until she had already done it.
If any one person is to blame, it is Charity.
The Council should be blamed because they could make it easy for anyone to discover the Laws of Magic. I'm sure they could promulgate something that one: a budding practitioner could recognize as "real," two: could be easily discovered by said practitioner, and three: included the Laws without tearing down the masquerade. Would every soon to be warlock discover yourawizardwhatnow.com and stop? No. But, depending on how it's done, most probably would.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Molly didn't go to Dresden BECAUSE of the hero worship thing. It's stated in the text.
--- End quote ---
As stated by Mab, but that doesn't make any sense does it? Molly wasn't an instant warlock, you'd think the first person she'd go to would be Harry when it awoke if it was about hero worship. I still think it was more of a guilt trip that Mab put on Harry, which we all know is easy to do. Let's also get this straight, Harry isn't responsible for Molly's hero worship. Let's face it, Molly thought Harry being a wizard was cool, Harry did do heroic things along with her father, saved her mother, her baby brother is named after him, Harry isn't a father figure, he is young enough to inspire romantic fantasies... You think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure? Mab may be that manipulative to engineer such a thing, but our Harry isn't.
--- Quote ---Harry complains that the Council isn't doing enough to find all the kids going warlock. He expects the Council to locate some random kid developing powers, but he wasn't able to stop A KID HE KNOWS AND WHOSE HOUSE HE OCCASIONALLY SLEEPS AT from going warlock.
--- End quote ---
Except he hadn't been near the Carpenter home for a couple of years! It sounds like Molly's talent awakened about the same time that her mother's did, approximately 16... So if she didn't show any talent when Harry was in and about the Carpenter house, how is he to know? As stated the HUGE SECRET here is Charity kept her talent to herself. What is more when her daughter came to her, she proceeded to alienate her because she wanted her to ignore it so it would go away.
--- Quote ---If any one person is to blame, it is Charity.
--- End quote ---
Yes, at the end of the day, that is where the blame lies. If she had been honest about her own experience and how dangerous untrained talent can be when Molly first came to her. It might have turned out differently. If Charity accepted the fact that being a wizard like Harry isn't an evil thing. If she hadn't made the mistake of thinking or rather had been more honest with herself that her own talent didn't fade because she simply ignored it but instead actively suppressed it, so told Molly to handle her talent in that manner.. Though suppressing this new found power was the last thing Molly wanted to do, things might have turned out differently. If Charity could have overcome her own prejudices against Harry and what he is and asked for help in the beginning, things might have turned out differently for Molly. And in Proven Guilty when Harry confronts her about coming clean about her talent, Charity admits it, and still wanted it kept secret, even from Michael.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 01, 2019, 10:25:15 AM ---As stated by Mab, but that doesn't make any sense does it?
--- End quote ---
It's also in Ch. 47 of Proven Guilty, as stated by Harry.
--- Quote ---[I figured] that you wouldn't want to come up to your favorite rock star and start fumbling around on a guitar so that the first thing he thinks about you is that you're incompetent."
She shivered and blushed even more. "No. It wasn't like that..."
Sure it was.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Mira on November 01, 2019, 10:25:15 AM ---Let's also get this straight, Harry isn't responsible for Molly's hero worship. ... You think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure?
--- End quote ---
When did I say any of that?
--- Quote from: Mira on November 01, 2019, 10:25:15 AM ---Except he hadn't been near the Carpenter home for a couple of years!
--- End quote ---
The point is that Harry is wrong that the Council could just find all these young talents before it was too late. He couldn't when he already knew the kid. How does he expect the Council to do what he couldn't when they don't even know the kid?
Your arguing that Harry isn't responsible. I, and I believe Morris, are arguing that Harry was wrong to think it was such an easy thing for the Council to find all these budding talents who the Council had no relationship. Harry having a pre-existing relationship with Molly and still not noticing is just evidence that it's not so easy to find these kids. I'm not saying it's evidence that it's Harry's fault she tried black magic. If you disagree with that argument, articulate that disagreement. I'm not going to defend a position that I'm accused of holding. (There's probably a word with less negative connotation than accused, but I have to run).
Mira:
--- Quote ---The point is that Harry is wrong that the Council could just find all these young talents before it was too late. He couldn't when he already knew the kid. How does he expect the Council to do what he couldn't when they don't even know the kid?
--- End quote ---
But that still does not make him responsible for Molly since he wasn't around when her talent showed itself. Having said that, when he got on the Merlin over the Korean Kid he was frustrated and very upset to witness a kid get the chop.. Something he nearly fell victim to.. Actually both have a good point, the Merlin that there are too many kids with the talent, too few wizards to mentor them or step up to put their own heads on the line if the kid has begun the slide into darkness. Harry in that each potential warlock should have a fair trial, because they have devolved somewhat into a kangaroo court. Not even the Merlin can put a head back on the shoulders of some poor kid if a mistake is made, and while some are not salvageable, ones that are shouldn't lose his or her head because a wizard doesn't have the balls to step up and take responsibility.
--- Quote ---When did I say any of that?
--- End quote ---
You said that Molly didn't go to Harry for help because of her hero worship of him. I said that made no sense, one would think it would give her more reason to go to him. What I am saying Harry never encouraged Molly's hero worship of him in the first place. He is what he is, as a young girl than teen, she thought being a wizard was cool, doing what Harry can do is cool, his bravery is cool, and last but not least while not as handsome perhaps as Thomas, Harry is still a good looking young guy. Natural for her to be smitten, I seriously doubt that Harry could do much about any of that.
--- Quote --- [I figured] that you wouldn't want to come up to your favorite rock star and start fumbling around on a guitar so that the first thing he thinks about you is that you're incompetent."
She shivered and blushed even more. "No. It wasn't like that..."
Sure it was.
--- End quote ---
It's Harry's theory, but Molly, herself, says it wasn't. Even if he insists that it was, but he never gave her a chance to give her reason.. That is a mistake on his part, a good teacher should always listen and not jump to conclusions. He asked and answered his own question to her and assumed he was right.. He might be, but he needs to listen to Molly as well. Again while some of what Harry said to Molly may be true, the real blame falls on Charity. She is Molly's mother, she is the one that was headed down the warlock path before she was save from the dragon by Michael. She is the one so afraid of magic and prejudiced against Harry. Molly went to her first, what Harry describes is how a young teen might see it, not wanting to go to her idol.. But Molly did go to her mother first,Charity is an adult, Molly is her child, she could either have packed Molly up and went to see Harry, or go to Harry herself for advice on how to handle Molly's awoken talent. She did neither, she alienated Molly with her prejudice and fears, who then ran away in a rebellious state of mind that only peers her age as she saw it could understand. I think the real reason she didn't go to Harry first off wasn't the explanation that Harry gave, but because she knew he'd take her right back to her parents, the last place she wanted to go.
morriswalters:
It isn't about blame or responsibility. From Mab's perspective the story plays out exactly as she states it. Whatever Harry's intent, Mab's dialog in Cold Days represents the end point. The way things turned out. Harry may not have meant it to work out that way, but he's the only one who could know that.
Why Molly didn't go to Harry is about secrets and trusting. Harry's, Charity's and Molly's. Harry's fear of being tainted by the coin, Charity's shame, around her gift. Molly's teenage insecurity. Harry pulls away and becomes distant. Charity can't tell Michael why she and Molly are at loggerheads. Molly's natural fears and inhibitions as an adolescent. JB creates a perfect storm, with each being driven by who and what they are. None of them able to completely trust the people in their lives who could help them.
IMO one of the major points of starting and ending in the warehouse is to show Harry's journey to understanding the problem of identifying proto wizards before getting to the point of needing a trial. I think this is the basis of Harry's thinking when he decides to create the Paranet. Many eyes.
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