The Dresden Files > DFRPG

Why are powers so much stronger than stunts?

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nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---Looked at another way, that's another 12 shifts a character can throw into a Death Curse (or when used as a human sacrifice), which is also a pretty big deal.
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I really don't think you should determine whether a power is viable based on what could happen with the last action a character can ever take before dying. I mean, how many games is that actually going to be relevant in? And when it is relevant, it's still only going to happen once.


--- Quote ---And prohibiting it is also a little squirrelly -- are there any powers that explicitly prohibit mixing with other powers (aside from, for instance, Supernatural Recovery being an upgrade to Inhuman recovery)?
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I don't know if there are any in the Dresden RPG, but, to borrow a term from TV Tropes, it's an Obvious Rules Patch. There's one interaction that's the problem, so you fix it by saying "you can't do that."


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.
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It also comes with a higher cost and a required weakness, neither of which is present in this proposed power.
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If Mythic Toughness is three times as good as another set of consequences, then this power (the consequences) is priced correctly, because Mythic Toughness is three times the cost. And this power does have a weakness--you have a bunch of taggable consequences.

Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 26, 2019, 03:37:09 PM ---I really don't think you should determine whether a power is viable based on what could happen with the last action a character can ever take before dying. I mean, how many games is that actually going to be relevant in? And when it is relevant, it's still only going to happen once.
--- End quote ---
I'm not saying that's what makes it viable or not, just that it's another consequence of the proposed power.

You can also give yourself consequences to power regular thaumaturgy, so a wizard with this power has all that extra juice they can put into non-death curse spells, too.

All I'm saying here is there are more side-effects and consequences to this proposed power than just making a character tougher to bring down.


--- Quote ---I don't know if there are any in the Dresden RPG, but, to borrow a term from TV Tropes, it's an Obvious Rules Patch. There's one interaction that's the problem, so you fix it by saying "you can't do that."
--- End quote ---
I would posit, alternately, that if the power you're proposing requires its own unique roll to avoid breaking the game, that's a point against it.


--- Quote ---If Mythic Toughness is three times as good as another set of consequences, then this power (the consequences) is priced correctly, because Mythic Toughness is three times the cost. And this power does have a weakness--you have a bunch of taggable consequences.
--- End quote ---
A tag is once. If it keeps coming up, you're getting fate points on it each time. And if and when you're finally taken down from running out of consequences, you're eligible for twice as many fate points in return for that loss than another character would be.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---I'm not saying that's what makes it viable or not, just that it's another consequence of the proposed power.

All I'm saying here is there are more side-effects and consequences to this proposed power than just making a character tougher to bring down.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---You can also give yourself consequences to power regular thaumaturgy, so a wizard with this power has all that extra juice they can put into non-death curse spells, too.
--- End quote ---

I can't be sure of this, given that I haven't actually played the game, but wouldn't the same problem exist for wizards with recovery powers? They could take a bunch of consequences, and by the time a fight broke out they'd be healed. With this power, you might get more consequences, but you're stuck with them for a while.


--- Quote ---I would posit, alternately, that if the power you're proposing requires its own unique roll to avoid breaking the game, that's a point against it.
--- End quote ---

I don't even know if this even is a problem. Or if it's only a problem with Supernatural or higher Recovery. Or if it's only a problem with Mythic Recovery. Or if it's only a problem in some games but not others. Like I said, I've never played this game at all, much less tested this power.

For that matter, I'm not sure how someone with recovery powers would justify taking this power, since it's meant to represent someone who is so used to being hurt that they've developed the ability to keep functioning with more damage than most people can handle, and someone with recovery powers wouldn't have learned to function with a huge amount of damage--they would have healed it. You are supposed to have narrative justification for the powers you take, after all. (Yes, I know I didn't say this earlier; it only now occurred to me that it probably wasn't obvious.)

All I'm saying is, if it's a problem in your game, then don't let characters do that. To me, it seems like the same thing as some people saying that you can't use the Spirit element for mental attacks, but some people don't have a problem with it.


--- Quote ---A tag is once. If it keeps coming up, you're getting fate points on it each time. And if and when you're finally taken down from running out of consequences, you're eligible for twice as many fate points in return for that loss than another character would be.
--- End quote ---

Hadn't thought about that.

Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 26, 2019, 05:03:33 PM ---I can't be sure of this, given that I haven't actually played the game, but wouldn't the same problem exist for wizards with recovery powers? They could take a bunch of consequences, and by the time a fight broke out they'd be healed. With this power, you might get more consequences, but you're stuck with them for a while.
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Over the long term, maybe, but this one would get them an additional 12 possible shifts on a spell immediately; or let them use all three consequences -- and, because they inflicted them themselves, if they got into a fight right afterward, their enemies couldn't tag them and they'd be effectively as fresh as someone with the normal amount of consequences.


--- Quote ---I don't even know if this even is a problem. Or if it's only a problem with Supernatural or higher Recovery. Or if it's only a problem with Mythic Recovery. Or if it's only a problem in some games but not others. Like I said, I've never played this game at all, much less tested this power.
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The lowest recovery power moves each one's recovery time down a step; so Milds recover more or less instantly like stress; moderates recover after the next scene; Severes after the next session (or at least, that's how the book does it; I tend to do it by in-game time, so by default, a mild is something you can walk off, moderate is something that takes a few days to a week, and severe is something with weeks to months of recovery time).

So even with the lowest level recovery power, someone with this could take all of their consequences save Extreme, and be more or less back in perfect health within a couple weeks.


--- Quote ---For that matter, I'm not sure how someone with recovery powers would justify taking this power, since it's meant to represent someone who is so used to being hurt that they've developed the ability to keep functioning with more damage than most people can handle, and someone with recovery powers wouldn't have learned to function with a huge amount of damage--they would have healed it. You are supposed to have narrative justification for the powers you take, after all. (Yes, I know I didn't say this earlier; it only now occurred to me that it probably wasn't obvious.)
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It could go the other way around. Someone with this power becomes, say, a Knight of Winter, and gets Inhuman Recovery in the deal.


--- Quote ---All I'm saying is, if it's a problem in your game, then don't let characters do that. To me, it seems like the same thing as some people saying that you can't use the Spirit element for mental attacks, but some people don't have a problem with it.
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I feel like the people who don't have a problem using spirit element for mental attacks are mostly the people who want to rely on spirit element for mental attacks to get around normal defenses.

It was one of the first things we learned to avoid when my group started doing Dresden. We had a couple quick "fight night" style sessions just to get used to the combat system, and at one point the GM has his wizard opponent just step out of the zone and hit the zone with a Weapon:9 mental attack. It was basically a zone-wide instakill -- one that we might have been able to dodge or tank if it had been a physical attack, but which we had no chance of doing to a mental one.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---Over the long term, maybe, but this one would get them an additional 12 possible shifts on a spell immediately; or let them use all three consequences -- and, because they inflicted them themselves, if they got into a fight right afterward, their enemies couldn't tag them and they'd be effectively as fresh as someone with the normal amount of consequences.
--- End quote ---

This feels wrong narratively--if you're going into a fight already hurt, it ought to make a difference--but I'm not sure how it should be handled mechanically.


--- Quote ---The lowest recovery power moves each one's recovery time down a step; so Milds recover more or less instantly like stress; moderates recover after the next scene; Severes after the next session (or at least, that's how the book does it; I tend to do it by in-game time, so by default, a mild is something you can walk off, moderate is something that takes a few days to a week, and severe is something with weeks to months of recovery time).

So even with the lowest level recovery power, someone with this could take all of their consequences save Extreme, and be more or less back in perfect health within a couple weeks.
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Yes, but how much does that matter if you have to resolve whatever you're dealing with by tomorrow? In the books, at least, being completely healed in a couple of weeks wouldn't make a difference, because the situations in question never take longer than three days or so to deal with.


--- Quote ---It could go the other way around. Someone with this power becomes, say, a Knight of Winter, and gets Inhuman Recovery in the deal.
--- End quote ---

Good point.


--- Quote ---I feel like the people who don't have a problem using spirit element for mental attacks are mostly the people who want to rely on spirit element for mental attacks to get around normal defenses.

It was one of the first things we learned to avoid when my group started doing Dresden. We had a couple quick "fight night" style sessions just to get used to the combat system, and at one point the GM has his wizard opponent just step out of the zone and hit the zone with a Weapon:9 mental attack. It was basically a zone-wide instakill -- one that we might have been able to dodge or tank if it had been a physical attack, but which we had no chance of doing to a mental one.
--- End quote ---

It can't only be people who just want to get around defenses, because using spirit attacks like this is in the RAW. I feel like they wouldn't stick it into the sourcebook just because someone wanted to cheat the system like that, so it follows that some groups can use it without a problem.

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