The Dresden Files > DFRPG

Why are powers so much stronger than stunts?

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Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 24, 2019, 05:33:48 PM ---Thanks!

So, if you're trying to stat out a character that starts out as an apprentice wizard and progresses to Kemmler-level badass, how would you go about that without inflating the numbers too much?

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Slowly. Pick a specialty for them, and focus their upgrades on that -- with the acceptance that some things are just going to end up being weaknesses for the character. Which is not a bad thing! Weaknesses make for great drama and chances for character growth, either by overcoming those weaknesses (which usually means getting them up to adequate levels, not making them the best at it) or accepting them and compensating in creative ways.

So if your Swording Wizard has to make Investigation her dump stat so that her combat stats are adequate-to-high? Perfect opportunity to expand her cast with, say, a computer hacker character that can look into the things the wizard can't, or a rival private eye. Or the wizard is forced to talk to demons and pixies and such.

No protagonist is an island -- and you can have a lot of fun teaching them that the hard way.

I mean, look at Harry Dresden. When we first meet him, he's basically got two big tricks over his opponents -- a hefty magic punch and he's a keen investigator. As the books go by, he's confronted with his deficiencies (usually in the forms of getting his arse kicked or finding a dead body he could've saved), and then he works to remedy that.

By the time of, say, the short story Heorot, Harry can win a fist fight with a couple thugs that Murphy probably would've wiped the floor with. Which is to say Harry accounted for his weakness and sought to bolster it, but he didn't get to a level beyond what others can do.

All that said, if they're a protagonist, I wouldn't let them get near Kemmler's level, because Kemmler is more of a plot device than a character, someone who can effectively "cheat" the normal skill distribution.

Sanctaphrax:

--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 24, 2019, 02:43:50 PM ---I have to disagree with Sanctaphrax here. Like he said, that's an additional 12 stress they can take; that brings the total stress a character can take in a single go up to 32 just on consequences alone (34 if they have a 5 in Endurance, 36 if they tack on No Pain, No Gain); that's up to 36 (38,40) with stress boxes, 41 (43,45) with an apex dodging skill, and 45 (47,49!) with a high roll.

So for two refresh, you've got someone -- with no other magical defenses -- who can fairly easily survive things like the Heart Exploding spell, which is statted out to explicitly be an inescapable one-hit-kill.
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Sure, it's great for surviving one-hit-kills. But how many of those do you actually face?

Usually when a character goes down it's because they've been hit again and again.

Four times out of five, I'd take Inhuman Toughness over this thing. As you said yourself, most fights are "exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out". For which this Power would be mostly useless.


--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 24, 2019, 02:43:50 PM ---Effectively adding 12 stress boxes, far more than the protection you get from a 6-refresh power like Mythic Toughness? And without a catch? No way I'd allow that for a measly 2 refresh, if I allowed that at all.

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It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.

Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.

Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.
--- End quote ---

And doesn't Inhuman Toughness let you absorb 9-11 stress (depending on your Endurance) that goes away at the end of the scene, plus giving you armor:1 against physical damage?


--- Quote ---Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.
--- End quote ---

And if recovery is a problem, I don't see any reason not to say "you can't take this with recovery powers," or "this costs extra with recovery powers."

Sanctaphrax:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 25, 2019, 03:44:54 AM ---And doesn't Inhuman Toughness let you absorb 9-11 stress (depending on your Endurance) that goes away at the end of the scene, plus giving you armor:1 against physical damage?
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Yes, but other times it just absorbs 2 stress. Either because 1-stress hits are filling your track box by box, or because you're dealing with a single overwhelming hit.

Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 25, 2019, 02:52:56 AM ---Sure, it's great for surviving one-hit-kills. But how many of those do you actually face?
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Not many, true. I was just pointing out how much tougher a character is with this.

Looked at another way, that's another 12 shifts a character can throw into a Death Curse (or when used as a human sacrifice), which is also a pretty big deal.


--- Quote ---Usually when a character goes down it's because they've been hit again and again.
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True -- and this stunt lets a character be hit three more times, and two of those times can be fairly substantial hits.


--- Quote ---Four times out of five, I'd take Inhuman Toughness over this thing. As you said yourself, most fights are "exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out". For which this Power would be mostly useless.
--- End quote ---
Aside from it offering three more hits a character can take, agreed.


--- Quote ---It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.
--- End quote ---
Two of the stress is per scene, but you're right, I misspoke.


--- Quote ---Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.
--- End quote ---
And prohibiting it is also a little squirrelly -- are there any powers that explicitly prohibit mixing with other powers (aside from, for instance, Supernatural Recovery being an upgrade to Inhuman recovery)?


--- Quote ---Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.

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It also comes with a higher cost and a required weakness, neither of which is present in this proposed power.

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