The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Why are powers so much stronger than stunts?
nadia.skylark:
I was looking at endurance-based stunts vs powers, and it's just ridiculous. By spending 2 refresh on Inhuman Toughness, you get armor:1 against anything physical, plus two additional stress boxes--which probably means you can absorb an extra 9-11 shifts of damage.
But if you spend that same 2 refresh on stunts to get similar abilities, you'd want stunts like Tough Stuff, which gives you armor:1 against some things but not others, and No Pain No Gain, which gets you an extra mild physical consequence--which means you can absorb an extra 2 shifts of damage, plus you can have the consequence compelled against you and you have to wait a scene for it to clear.
This seems like a huge disparity.
g33k:
I think it's the supernatural-vs-mortal thing.
Stunts don't hit you in the Mortality, IIRC, unless they're stunts based off of a supernatural Power.
Now, it's a separate question whether the Mortal refresh-bonus is adequate compensation. One thing I have advocated for is a Mortal Refresh-Bonus that scales higher/faster with the power-level of the game, to help Mortal PC's keep up.
Sanctaphrax:
Because they decided to write the game that way. I realize that's not helpful, but it's foundational enough that it can't really be explained in terms of other rules bits.
I'm not sure exactly why they chose to write that way, but I can speculate. Stunts were a well-established part of the rules system before DFRPG even existed, and they do a good job for representing human abilities. But they're not really adequate for representing the strength of a giant or the world-changing power of a wizard. The approach they chose let them keep stunts, while also representing powers well. And it helped shape the incentives of character creation in such a way that supernaturals would often / usually spend down to 1 Refresh while mortals would have a good supply of FP.
It's also worth mentioning that Tough Stuff and No Pain No Gain aren't exactly the best stunts around. Even in an all-mortals game they're not that appealing. As I said back when I wrote that optimization guide, stunts are at their best when they improve a speciality, add a capability, or cover a weakness. And often they can improve you in areas that Powers can't really touch.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I think it's the supernatural-vs-mortal thing.
Stunts don't hit you in the Mortality, IIRC, unless they're stunts based off of a supernatural Power.
--- End quote ---
I get that for why stunts are slightly less powerful. The problem is that some stunts are ridiculously less powerful.
--- Quote ---It's also worth mentioning that Tough Stuff and No Pain No Gain aren't exactly the best stunts around. Even in an all-mortals game they're not that appealing.
--- End quote ---
Ah. Do you think it would be a problem if I re-tooled No Pain No Gain to give you an extra mild, moderate, and severe consequence? You'd be able to absorb slightly more stress than with Inhuman Toughness, but at the cost of taking a bunch of consequences, so it seems like it would still be slightly less powerful than the equivalent refresh in powers. I'm not sure, though. What do you think?
--- Quote ---As I said back when I wrote that optimization guide, stunts are at their best when they improve a speciality, add a capability, or cover a weakness. And often they can improve you in areas that Powers can't really touch.
--- End quote ---
I'll read that.
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 17, 2019, 04:24:45 AM ---Ah. Do you think it would be a problem if I re-tooled No Pain No Gain to give you an extra mild, moderate, and severe consequence? You'd be able to absorb slightly more stress than with Inhuman Toughness, but at the cost of taking a bunch of consequences, so it seems like it would still be slightly less powerful than the equivalent refresh in powers. I'm not sure, though. What do you think?
--- End quote ---
I think that would be significantly too strong. It takes 2-3 extra stress to one-shot someone with Inhuman Toughness, while that pile of consequences can absorb 12 stress.
I don't really see it as a problem that No Pain No Gain is unexciting, but if you want to strengthen it you could have the bonus consequence not come with a tag. Allowing a bonus stress box stunt probably wouldn't break anything either.
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