The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?

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nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---That was noted as clever and unusual precisely because Margaret Le Fey got around the restriction that the curse should not have lasted past her death.

Typically death curses are one-shots, likely because enchantments can't normally survive the caster's death (or sunrise/sunset). Cassius' death-curse is arguably a counter-example, but I still consider that a one-shot. It only takes effect once - at Harry's death. Cassius wasn't able to curse Harry to "live alone," because that would be an ongoing effect that would need to be sustained.
--- End quote ---

As I remember it, it was noted as unusual because it was a sustained effect at all, rather than because it survived her death. It's mentioned in one of the short stories that successive sunrises wear down spells, so that they have to be periodically renewed.


--- Quote ---Honestly, the RPG probably has the answer to this question.
--- End quote ---

No. Well, sort of. An enthrallment spell, according to the RPG, can work in one of two ways. The first way is that it inflicts consequences, which fade in a certain amount of time after something has been done to start the healing process. The other way is to put enough power into the spell to take somebody out (fill up all their stress, and frequently all their consequences) which allows you to rewrite one or more of their aspects (which define essential aspects of one's character). You can change your aspects, but you need a good in-universe reason to do so. For the first type, killing the caster might be considered a reason to justify beginning to recover from consequences, but it's not mentioned explicitly in the RAW, so it would depend on what individual groups decide. For the second type, killing the caster probably wouldn't be enough to justify changing the aspect, or if it was the aspect would probably be changed to something equally problematic relating to the enthrallment...but it's not explicitly mentioned in the RAW, so it would depend on what individual groups decide.

The RPG likes leaving things up in the air.


--- Quote ---The way I think it works is, enthrallment isn't an effect stemming continuously from the caster -- it's an effect you place on the person being enthralled. One that, effectively, rewrites or changes something in their mind to make them obey you.

So, to my thinking, it's not, "While under the effects of this ongoing spell, you will obey me," but "I'm altering your brain so that you will obey me."
--- End quote ---

This makes a lot of sense.

morriswalters:

--- Quote --- "I got out of the house before you and Justin were finished," she said finally. "His spells had begun to unravel, and I was struggling against them. Confused, terrified. I must have run. I don't even remember doing it."
--- End quote ---
Enthrallment doesn't paralyze you, it appears to make you compliant.  Justin would have been busy dealing with Harry and lacking instruction to the contrary Elaine might have run from the fire.  A basic fire kills, panic, run away, type of a thing. 

Jim has been fairly clear on what happens to someone being controlled against their will.  They fight it on an unconscious level. There are multiple examples in the books.  This assuming that enthrallment is a form of mind magic comparable to what Molly used on her friends. If he used a charm or some other type or artifact to produce a similar effect he would have needed to pump power into it continuously, much like Harry did with his gear and wards.

It's possible, however unlikely, that someone discovered a way into Archangel from the Never Never, which would have bypassed the wards.  Jim showed one possible mechanism in Skin Game.  These are some random thoughts on the subject.

peregrine:
Also, Fire when used in a certain way has a cleansing aspect to it, that can wipe away magics and whatnot.  And there was a lot of fire being thrown around when Harry and Justin were going at it.  Some of that splash may have affected other magics in the area.

Cozarkian:
Those are all good comments. I think I've been imagining the enthrallment as too much of a "puppet master" spell than it actually is. But if Justin's death didn't end the enthrallment, does that mean Elaine is still suffering from permanent changes to her way of thinking?

On retrospect, if Elaine ran from the fire early in the battle, it is also possible she could escape the White Council. The White Council would be on the hunt for Harry and would have his magic signature to use to find him. However, they wouldn't know Elaine existed and the fire could have cleansed the signs of any magic Elaine had used. Since Leah was hanging around watching over Harry, there also could have been someone from Summer hanging around who swooped in to take advantage of Elaine's situation.

But, I do still think Justin escaping into the NN with Elaine is quite possible. Elaine may have run from the fire, but she could have just as easily stuck around fighting an internal battle against enthrallment as to whether she would help Justin or Harry. If the latter happened, Justin could still have opened a way to the NN, taken Elaine with him, then gone to summer and struck a deal for the two of them, in which he basically indebted Elaine to Summer in exchange for Summer's help in hiding the fact he is still alive from the WC. The theory is still viable, although less likely.

LordDragonFire:

--- Quote from: Cozarkian on April 05, 2019, 08:34:40 PM ---Those are all good comments. I think I've been imagining the enthrallment as too much of a "puppet master" spell than it actually is. But if Justin's death didn't end the enthrallment, does that mean Elaine is still suffering from permanent changes to her way of thinking?

On retrospect, if Elaine ran from the fire early in the battle, it is also possible she could escape the White Council. The White Council would be on the hunt for Harry and would have his magic signature to use to find him. However, they wouldn't know Elaine existed and the fire could have cleansed the signs of any magic Elaine had used. Since Leah was hanging around watching over Harry, there also could have been someone from Summer hanging around who swooped in to take advantage of Elaine's situation.

But, I do still think Justin escaping into the NN with Elaine is quite possible. Elaine may have run from the fire, but she could have just as easily stuck around fighting an internal battle against enthrallment as to whether she would help Justin or Harry. If the latter happened, Justin could still have opened a way to the NN, taken Elaine with him, then gone to summer and struck a deal for the two of them, in which he basically indebted Elaine to Summer in exchange for Summer's help in hiding the fact he is still alive from the WC. The theory is still viable, although less likely.

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It's possible...but I think Cowl's recruitment pitch would have been better targeted if Cowl was Justin.

Also, he went to a lot of trouble to acquire two potential Starborn....would he really sell one to Summer?

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