The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
Mira:
--- Quote ---The set aside your power and only by taking up and giving up the coin statements are still contradictory. No one has ever gotten a shadow and then gotten rid of it by setting aside magic (according to statement 3).
--- End quote ---
Actually as pointed out, the records are sketchy because they have been meddled with over the centuries... The statement of the shadow verses the coin isn't contradictory, one is tangible, the coin, where as the shadow isn't tangible.. The shadow is the projection of the Fallen that after physical contact with it's coin sets up shop in the brain to soften up the would be host to eventually accept the coin. Once the coin is accepted by the host, the host is then under the control of the Fallen holding the coin.. The host benefits and usually doesn't want to give up the coin, but it happens, the influence vanishes and the man or woman if free to finish his or her life freely.. Usually with the help of a Holy Knight... The shadow is a flim-flam person selling the would be host a bill of goods... It never stops whispering, so it a lot harder to discard plus there is no tangible proof that is has been discarded... Perhaps claims of this have been made in the past, but were never true.. Remember in Small Favor, Nic was quite shocked when he called on Lasciel to take over Harry only to find out she no longer lived there.
--- Quote ---I appear to have been unclear about what I meant here--sorry. I meant: do we have any evidence that Michael was right/do we know what evidence Michael had to base this claim on.
--- End quote ---
None except maybe giving up her power prevented his wife Charity from becoming a warlock.. Also perhaps if he sacrificed his power Michael believed that the Almighty would help Harry shake off the shadow.
--- Quote ---True, but Harry still had his magic then, so it doesn't speak to that. If anything, this is evidence for the fact that the shadow can draw some measure of strength from the Fallen in its coin, even when the host hasn't accepted the coin.
--- End quote ---
Not strength so much, but knowledge, the shadow knew everything that Lasciel knew, also had all of her seductive ways.. As a wizard, Harry made full used of that knowledge and nearly was seduced by it, credit Murphy for sitting him down and making him aware of it.. It was a come to Jesus moment like confronting a drug addict who doesn't believe he has a problem..
exartiem:
Talby16 and Mira touched on my points.
Why would Nic go to the trouble of destroying the church's records if not to do exactly this. Perhaps it has happened in the past and Nic wanted to keep it secret in order to make someone like Michael think it was hopeless.
I cannot think of another reason than to prevent the exposure of a potential weakness.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Actually as pointed out, the records are sketchy because they have been meddled with over the centuries... The statement of the shadow verses the coin isn't contradictory, one is tangible, the coin, where as the shadow isn't tangible.. The shadow is the projection of the Fallen that after physical contact with it's coin sets up shop in the brain to soften up the would be host to eventually accept the coin. Once the coin is accepted by the host, the host is then under the control of the Fallen holding the coin.. The host benefits and usually doesn't want to give up the coin, but it happens, the influence vanishes and the man or woman if free to finish his or her life freely.. Usually with the help of a Holy Knight... The shadow is a flim-flam person selling the would be host a bill of goods... It never stops whispering, so it a lot harder to discard plus there is no tangible proof that is has been discarded... Perhaps claims of this have been made in the past, but were never true.. Remember in Small Favor, Nic was quite shocked when he called on Lasciel to take over Harry only to find out she no longer lived there.
--- End quote ---
What? You appear to be talking about what the difference is between taking up the coin and having the shadow inside your head, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.
The issue under discussion is reconciling the two statements:
1) Giving up your magic will get rid of the shadow.
2) The only way anyone has gotten rid of a shadow is by taking up the coin and then setting it aside.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias ---@Morris: I'd agree with you if it weren't for statement 3. It's very hard to have that next to statement 1.
--- End quote ---
Your number three.
--- Quote ---Because in two thousand years no one has rid themselves of the shadow of one of the Fallen-except by accepting the demon into them entirely, taking up the coin, and living to feel remorse and discarding it. And you claim that you never took up the coin."
--- End quote ---
Harry didn't rid himself of the Shadow. So Micheal was right. The Shadow was destroyed by a psychic attack. Statement one is more dubious. However you can read it as saying that while the Shadow is never destroyed, through disuse it can be forgotten. And Jim uses this paradigm more than once. It's basically what the Oblivion War is about. Out of sight, out of mind.
In terms of Harry's power in some fashion keeping the Shadow alive, think more in terms of what Harry does. Because Harry is constantly punching out of his range, he constantly ends up relying on the Shadow. And every time he uses her he reinforces that part where she resides.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on February 19, 2019, 09:29:47 PM ---The set aside your power and only by taking up and giving up the coin statements are still contradictory. No one has ever gotten a shadow and then gotten rid of it by setting aside magic (according to statement 3).
--- End quote ---
Does Sonja have a shadow in his mind? He used to have a Coin. He's never mentioned it I don't think. What I gather is that if a vanilla mortal denies a Coin, they are free of it completely. The wizard on the other hand is not because their magic grants a conduit for the Coin to create the Shadow. So Michael's point was that Harry needed to set aside his power so that it would eventually, over time fade away until Harry was vanilla, granting him freedom from the Shadow.
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