The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Harry didn't rid himself of the Shadow. So Micheal was right.
--- End quote ---
The issue is not whether Michael is right. The issue is that Michael contradicted himself.
--- Quote ---Does Sonja have a shadow in his mind? He used to have a Coin. He's never mentioned it I don't think.
--- End quote ---
Michael says in Small Favor that you lose the shadow if you take up the coin and then reject it, so Sanya wouldn't have a shadow regardless of whether he had magic.
Of course...Michael could be lying ;D.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on February 19, 2019, 09:37:07 PM ---I appear to have been unclear about what I meant here--sorry. I meant: do we have any evidence that Michael was right/do we know what evidence Michael had to base this claim on.
True, but Harry still had his magic then, so it doesn't speak to that. If anything, this is evidence for the fact that the shadow can draw some measure of strength from the Fallen in its coin, even when the host hasn't accepted the coin.
--- End quote ---
Not really as to your first paragraph. The shadow has to draw power from something. If it can survive only on a wizard's power, then it would be believable that Michael believed that Harry would have to set aside his power. I don't buy it, but it's something.
--- Quote from: exartiem on February 19, 2019, 11:20:04 PM ---Why would Nic go to the trouble of destroying the church's records if not to do exactly this. Perhaps it has happened in the past and Nic wanted to keep it secret in order to make someone like Michael think it was hopeless.
I cannot think of another reason than to prevent the exposure of a potential weakness.
--- End quote ---
Maybe a Knight found his weakness? Didn't Michael say that Nicodemus destroys the Church's records of Nicodemus?
Also, Lash confirms that no one has ever resisted the shadow of a fallen for as long as Harry. Of course, she could be lying. It's what she does.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 20, 2019, 12:00:38 AM ---Your number three.Harry didn't rid himself of the Shadow. So Micheal was right.
--- End quote ---
Michael said Harry could rid himself of the shadow by giving up his magic. Then Michael said no one has rid themselves of a shadow except by doing something different. Why did Michael say the first thing if the second thing was true? Now the two statements are not mutually exclusive, but what caused Michael to say something he had no historical evidence for?
One could say Harry got rid of the shadow by resisting it and by shaping and convincing it to do the right thing.
Perhaps Michael was confounding black magic taint with shadow taint. Then he hit the books and realized his mistake.
The statement that Harry could set his power aside and be free of the shadow and that the only way to rid yourself of a shadow is by taking up a coin and then giving it up don't sit well together. They're about as close to being mutually exclusive as anything can get without actually being mutually exclusive.
The simplest explanation was that Michael lied to Harry in Proven Guilty because he believed what he later said in Small Favor. If he told Harry he had to take up the coin to rid himself of the shadow, that would be one more thing tempting him to take up the coin. Michael knows Harry better than we will ever know anyone irl. He has seen his soul. Michael could have thought that Harry's best chance of not going to hell was living for centuries with the shadow because Harry would have been too stubborn to ever take up the coin.
I still think Michael was wrong in Proven Guilty and then wrong again in Small Favor. I don't think he was lying.
morriswalters:
@nadia.skylark
Both statements are true and not contradictory. Statement one says the Shadow will waste away, not that it will be gone. And that can't happen since Harry won't give up his power which reinforces its existence. Which was the condition that Micheal set. This is true if you accept my use of waste away.
@Bad Alias
--- Quote ---The shadow has to draw power from something.
--- End quote ---
It draws its power from its Fallen.
--- Quote ---Michael said Harry could rid himself of the shadow by giving up his magic. Then Michael said no one has rid themselves of a shadow except by doing something different.
--- End quote ---
That isn't quite what he said. Your reading waste away as gone. That isn't clear. And then he says that there may be something he isn't aware of. Your 2. In your statement 3 and 4 Micheal becomes an unreliable narrator. He reports a truth as he understands it. In terms of the sequence as written he is taking counsel from his fear. He knows something is wrong and he clings to the thing he knows rather than the thing he can't verify. Jim has been pushing the narrative in that direction through the whole passage.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 20, 2019, 03:25:46 AM ---Your reading waste away as gone.
--- End quote ---
Yes. I am.
--- Quote ---Michael: You've got ot get rid of the coin.
Harry: Love to. How?
Michael: Give up the coin of you own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel's shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.
--- End quote ---
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---The shadow has to draw power from something. If it can survive only on a wizard's power, then it would be believable that Michael believed that Harry would have to set aside his power.
--- End quote ---
This is true: if the shadow could survive on a wizard's power, it would provide support for Michael's claim in Proven Guilty. However, Bob said that Lash was drawing power from Harry's soul, and I'm pretty sure all humans have one of those, whether they have magic or not.
--- Quote ---Perhaps Michael was confounding black magic taint with shadow taint. Then he hit the books and realized his mistake.
--- End quote ---
Possibly. Though I still think that in this case Michael should have told Harry when he discovered it.
--- Quote ---The simplest explanation was that Michael lied to Harry in Proven Guilty because he believed what he later said in Small Favor. If he told Harry he had to take up the coin to rid himself of the shadow, that would be one more thing tempting him to take up the coin. Michael knows Harry better than we will ever know anyone irl. He has seen his soul. Michael could have thought that Harry's best chance of not going to hell was living for centuries with the shadow because Harry would have been too stubborn to ever take up the coin.
--- End quote ---
I like this explanation! It makes a lot of sense.
--- Quote ---Statement one says the Shadow will waste away, not that it will be gone. And that can't happen since Harry won't give up his power which reinforces its existence. Which was the condition that Micheal set. This is true if you accept my use of waste away.
--- End quote ---
There are two problems with this. The first is that I see no evidence that Harry's magic reinforces the existence of the shadow. The second is that I don't accept your interpretation of "waste away." If that was the sense in which Michael was using it, then he was being deliberately misleading.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Your reading waste away as gone.
--- End quote ---
Yes. I am.
--- End quote ---
Me too.
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