The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote --- Getting rid of a Shadow is, at best, extremely rare, rare enough to be a non-issue for whatever Nicodemus has been up to for the previous 2,000 years. Nicodemus has more important things to worry about than something that may well have never happened. He has no reason to go out of his way to suppress a bit of obscure minutiae that he may well not even know exists in the first place.
--- End quote ---
Well, given that he's already suppressing a bunch of information, I don't see why he wouldn't add it to the list. Honestly, I just don't think that it would take much effort.
--- Quote ---Yeah, that's not what I said or implied. What I said was, after a few centuries of nobody getting rid of a Shadow, Nicodemus would not bother to continue worrying about people getting rid of a Shadow. "Spying on the church" doesn't mean he gets every single minor fact and detail every time he looks.
--- End quote ---
I figure that he probably tries to keep track of everything the Church thinks about Denarians, just on general principle.
--- Quote ---The "missing information" I refer to is the idea summed up as "Harry getting rid of his magic will not get rid of the Shadow." There's no statement or suggestion to that effect in the books. There's only a sort of negative evidence, in that Michael didn't bring it up in the Small Favor conversation, long after the whole idea of Harry giving up his magic is moot and clearly not in play, which has any number of other explanations besides that.
--- End quote ---
My issue with the idea that Harry giving up his magic would get rid of the shadow has always been the lack of evidence for it--and if this is true in-universe as well, then Michael would be aware of it.
On the other hand, at this point I've found some evidence that Harry giving up his magic would reduce the shadow's influence if nothing else, so I'm happy with that.
Mira:
--- Quote ---My issue with the idea that Harry giving up his magic would get rid of the shadow has always been the lack of evidence for it--and if this is true in-universe as well, then Michael would be aware of it.
--- End quote ---
Again, this is where faith comes in.... Michael has been right about things in the past because he
believes it will come to pass because he believes the Almighty has his back.. He doesn't need evidence, he just knows it is so.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Again, this is where faith comes in.... Michael has been right about things in the past because he
believes it will come to pass because he believes the Almighty has his back.. He doesn't need evidence, he just knows it is so.
--- End quote ---
Look, even faith doesn't mean believing things for no reason whatsoever. Michael is not going to suddenly start believing in flying polka-dotted elephants because he's a person of faith and as such doesn't need such silly things as facts and logic--that isn't how it works.
I may believe in global warming because scientists say it's real, and I consider scientists a generally trustworthy source of information.
A devout catholic may believe that God wants us to protect the environment because the Pope says so, and he/she considers the Pope a source of trustworthy information.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Look, even faith doesn't mean believing things for no reason whatsoever.
--- End quote ---
Yes, it does, faith isn't logical nor is it a rational thing.
--- Quote ---Michael is not going to suddenly start believing in flying polka-dotted elephants because he's a person of faith and as such doesn't need such silly things as facts and logic--that isn't how it works.
--- End quote ---
Yes, it is exactly how it works... There is a whole group of people for example that still believe the Earth is flat in spite of all the evidence and facts to the contrary..
--- Quote ---I may believe in global warming because scientists say it's real, and I consider scientists a generally trustworthy source of information.
--- End quote ---
Yes, so do I, however there is as many people who don't believe in it because people in power tell them it isn't true in spite of the evidence.. They consider the people in positions of power telling them this just as trust worthy... So who is telling the truth? Who is deliberately lying? Or is one side just totally mistaken?
--- Quote ---A devout catholic may believe that God wants us to protect the environment because the Pope says so, and he/she considers the Pope a source of trustworthy information.
--- End quote ---
Yes, but he may also come out and say we don't have to worry about the environment because God
will protect His creation no matter what... Should a good Catholic still believe him? He is still considered a trustworthy source of information, the Faithful or a lot of them still believe the Pope to be infallible..
The point I am trying to make here is it is a lot more complicated when you add religious faith to the mix. It is too simplistic to claim that Michael deliberately lied to Harry about a solution to his problem with the shadow. What many of us are saying is from his point of view he was speaking the truth. . . Whether or not he is or was mistaken is moot because it was never put to the test, and Harry was able to come up with his own alternative cure... It had never happened before as far as the evidence, i.e. Church records show. Michael still could have been totally right, it is just that we will never know.. Alternatively he could have been totally mistaken, we will never know... However he wasn't trying to deliberately lie or sell Harry a bill of goods to get him to give up his magic...
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Yes, it does, faith isn't logical nor is it a rational thing.
--- End quote ---
There is a difference between saying that faith means believing things for reasons that others don't consider logical and rational and saying that faith means believing in things for no reason.
--- Quote ---There is a whole group of people for example that still believe the Earth is flat in spite of all the evidence and facts to the contrary..
--- End quote ---
There is a difference between being delusional/in denial and having faith. I seriously doubt that people's belief that the world is flat can ward off vampires.
--- Quote ---Yes, so do I, however there is as many people who don't believe in it because people in power tell them it isn't true in spite of the evidence.. They consider the people in positions of power telling them this just as trust worthy... So who is telling the truth? Who is deliberately lying? Or is one side just totally mistaken?
Yes, but he may also come out and say we don't have to worry about the environment because God
will protect His creation no matter what... Should a good Catholic still believe him? He is still considered a trustworthy source of information, the Faithful or a lot of them still believe the Pope to be infallible..
--- End quote ---
You are agreeing with me. People believe things because they have reasons to, generally, even if others disagree with those reasons.
--- Quote ---he point I am trying to make here is it is a lot more complicated when you add religious faith to the mix. It is too simplistic to claim that Michael deliberately lied to Harry about a solution to his problem with the shadow.
--- End quote ---
Pay attention. Not only have we moved past this, but I have never claimed that Michael lying to Harry deliberately was anything more than one possibility of many.
This claim is too simplistic because you are oversimplifying what I said.
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