The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
nadia.skylark:
I'm not going to be responding to everything stated here, because some of these posts are getting really long. I'll try to cover every point brought up, but no promises.
--- Quote ---This is still assuming a level of micromanagement that's probably completely unnecessary for an edge case that probably never, or almost never, comes up in any kind of practical sense. If it hasn't happened in 2,000 years, Nicodemus isn't going to give a damn about the possibility.
--- End quote ---
Nicodemus is a spymaster. Keeping track of what his enemies know/believe is what he does.
I'm not saying it's his first priority, but between Anduriel and the fact that we know that there is enough corruption in the Church for the Denarians to keep getting their coins back, it wouldn't be that difficult for him to keep track of.
--- Quote ---As you say, it's at best remote; and I doubt Michael would be swayed, anyway.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.
--- Quote ---He literally looks Harry in the eye and says that if Harry takes up the coin, he absolutely will be there, and says so while his hand is on his sword. I don't know what more you could possibly want on this -- Michael makes it absolutely clear that he is fully prepared to take his best friend's head off if need be.
--- End quote ---
I'll accept this as provisionally true, on the basis that the only argument I can think of making against it is personal and I don't want to discuss it; and I'm not going to claim you're wrong without providing an explanation of why I think so.
--- Quote ---I kinda don't think formal logic comes into play; we're not talking about randomized statistical samples here.
--- End quote ---
Formal logic only comes into play because you were claiming that this wasn't evidence; formal logic allows me to establish that it absolutely is evidence.
How much weight to give that evidence, on the other hand...
--- Quote ---Nicodemus is arrogant as hell, and after a couple hundred years of nobody to his knowledge removing a Shadow, he probably just thinks it's impossible and stops worrying, if he ever worried at all.
He's as vulnerable to confirmation bias as anyone, so if he doesn't want there to be a way to get rid of a Shadow, and in a couple hundred years, nobody does, that's good enough for him to conclude that it's simply a non-issue.
--- End quote ---
Maybe, but I seriously doubt that Nicodemus is going to decide "well, I've been spying on the Church for 2000 years, I'll just stop now."
The argument you should be making is that Nicodemus doesn't consider the possibility of Harry having gotten rid of the shadow because he's well aware that Harry's still throwing magic around, and furthermore that he's been using hellfire.
--- Quote ---True. I won't posit that he can go to The Man Upstairs for confirmation on everything, but given what we see in the books, I'd suggest that his intuition and "gut feeling" is probably more accurate than most when he's trying to suss out the truth.
--- End quote ---
Fair enough.
--- Quote ---Fair on the first bit. On the second, again, I have to insist that Michael has no reason to be aware of these risks, and that the "missing information" didn't exist until it was posited in this thread. It's just not a reasonable concern he would have or should have had, and it's unfair to expect him to account for it.
--- End quote ---
I'd argue that the missing information was in the books, but absolutely Michael would not know it. That was the point I was trying to make--Michael does not and should not be expected to have access to this information.
--- Quote ---I wouldn't call it an exaggeration, per se, but as I said, Michael tends to speak with conviction and sureness; he believes it will work, so he speaks as if it's a sure thing.
--- End quote ---
Fair enough. At this point I'm convinced that Michael absolutely had reason to believe that his suggestion would help and would be the right thing to do (I just think it might not have done quite as much as he implied it would--but as you pointed out, that could just be a result of Michael's certainty, rather than any attempt to deliberately mislead Harry).
--- Quote ---Isn't kind of like believing in the afterlife? Some believe in it even though there is no documented evidence proving it and will argue hard that there is one... Others believe just as hard that dead is dead, and there is actually good evidence for that belief.. But those who believe in the afterlife will continue to cling to the belief despite the evidence... So who is lying?
--- End quote ---
I think this is an issue of differing axioms and differing beliefs about what constitutes evidence.
I'd rather not discuss it further, because it's getting too near real world religious issues for my comfort.
Kindler:
You know, I think some are forgetting that prior to Harry telling him, Michael had thought Harry had actually taken up the Coin.
Proven Guilty, page 415 on Nook:
--- Quote ---"Don't be ridiculous," Michael said. "Remember that the Knights of the Cross were not founded to destroy the Denarians. We were founded to save them from the Fallen. It is therefore my duty to help you in whatever way I can. I can help you discard the coin if that is what you wish to do. It's best if you choose to do it yourself."
"I don't need to discard it, actually," I said. "I haven't really taken the coin up. I buried it. Never used it."
Michael looked surprised. "No? That is good news, then. Though it means that the Fallen's Shadow is still attempting to persuade you, I take it?"
--- End quote ---
(All emphasis added).
1. Michael is ready to help Harry if he wants it. It's better if Harry comes to Michael for help out of contrition rather than Michael confronting Harry about it and forcing the issue.
2. Michael had truly believed that Harry had taken up the Coin, but not that he had signed up to play on the Fallen's team yet (otherwise I find it hard to believe that Michael would give Harry the task of protecting his family while he was away Knighting, if nothing else).
So, I think it's perfectly possible that Michael was not prepared to fully answer Harry's question, and instead fell back on the old standbys: through an act of free will, reject the power you are tempted with.
Further keep in mind that Michael is generally uncomfortable with magic. It's brought up much more frequently in the earlier books (and he doesn't trust Bob at all), but Michael seems (or seemed) to think that magic is power that causes temptation. I bet Michael had Matthew 5:29 on his mind:
--- Quote ---If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.
--- End quote ---
Fundamentally, I think Michael believes that an act of free will that rejects offers of corruptive power and influence should reduce or eliminate the presence of the Shadow. And, as Mr. Death has pointed out many times in this thread, just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean they don't know how it works, so there's not necessarily much contradiction between that and Small Favor.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---You know, I think some are forgetting that prior to Harry telling him, Michael had thought Harry had actually taken up the Coin.
--- End quote ---
You're right! I had forgotten that.
--- Quote ---So, I think it's perfectly possible that Michael was not prepared to fully answer Harry's question, and instead fell back on the old standbys: through an act of free will, reject the power you are tempted with.
--- End quote ---
This makes sense.
--- Quote ---Further keep in mind that Michael is generally uncomfortable with magic. It's brought up much more frequently in the earlier books (and he doesn't trust Bob at all), but Michael seems (or seemed) to think that magic is power that causes temptation. I bet Michael had Matthew 5:29 on his mind:
Fundamentally, I think Michael believes that an act of free will that rejects offers of corruptive power and influence should reduce or eliminate the presence of the Shadow.
--- End quote ---
I was arguing that this was a possibility earlier, actually, but... meh, I like my theory about hellfire leaving a residue in magic like summer fire does better. It lets me think better of Michael than if he was still prejudiced against magic after years of Harry using it to help him.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on March 05, 2019, 12:33:20 AM ---I'm not going to be responding to everything stated here, because some of these posts are getting really long. I'll try to cover every point brought up, but no promises.
Nicodemus is a spymaster. Keeping track of what his enemies know/believe is what he does.
I'm not saying it's his first priority, but between Anduriel and the fact that we know that there is enough corruption in the Church for the Denarians to keep getting their coins back, it wouldn't be that difficult for him to keep track of.
--- End quote ---
He keeps track of things that matter. Getting rid of a Shadow is, at best, extremely rare, rare enough to be a non-issue for whatever Nicodemus has been up to for the previous 2,000 years. Nicodemus has more important things to worry about than something that may well have never happened. He has no reason to go out of his way to suppress a bit of obscure minutiae that he may well not even know exists in the first place.
Just because it's mentioned in a conversation important to Harry doesn't mean it's important to Nicodemus.
--- Quote ---I'll accept this as provisionally true, on the basis that the only argument I can think of making against it is personal and I don't want to discuss it; and I'm not going to claim you're wrong without providing an explanation of why I think so.
--- End quote ---
Fair enough.
--- Quote ---Formal logic only comes into play because you were claiming that this wasn't evidence; formal logic allows me to establish that it absolutely is evidence.
How much weight to give that evidence, on the other hand...
--- End quote ---
Yeah, that's the sticking point, I think -- you might consider it evidence that could point to it not being a thing, but I'm saying it's not evidence that shows that it's not a thing.
--- Quote ---Maybe, but I seriously doubt that Nicodemus is going to decide "well, I've been spying on the Church for 2000 years, I'll just stop now."
--- End quote ---
Yeah, that's not what I said or implied. What I said was, after a few centuries of nobody getting rid of a Shadow, Nicodemus would not bother to continue worrying about people getting rid of a Shadow. "Spying on the church" doesn't mean he gets every single minor fact and detail every time he looks.
--- Quote ---I'd argue that the missing information was in the books, but absolutely Michael would not know it. That was the point I was trying to make--Michael does not and should not be expected to have access to this information.
--- End quote ---
The "missing information" I refer to is the idea summed up as "Harry getting rid of his magic will not get rid of the Shadow." There's no statement or suggestion to that effect in the books. There's only a sort of negative evidence, in that Michael didn't bring it up in the Small Favor conversation, long after the whole idea of Harry giving up his magic is moot and clearly not in play, which has any number of other explanations besides that.
--- Quote ---Fair enough. At this point I'm convinced that Michael absolutely had reason to believe that his suggestion would help and would be the right thing to do (I just think it might not have done quite as much as he implied it would--but as you pointed out, that could just be a result of Michael's certainty, rather than any attempt to deliberately mislead Harry).
--- End quote ---
OK then.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Yeah, that's not what I said or implied. What I said was, after a few centuries of nobody getting rid of a Shadow, Nicodemus would not bother to continue worrying about people getting rid of a Shadow. "Spying on the church" doesn't mean he gets every single minor fact and detail every time he looks.
--- End quote ---
And as I pointed out in Small Favor, Nic had no clue that Harry could rid himself of the shadow.. If he knew he wouldn't have called upon Lasciel's shadow to take Harry over at that moment.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version