The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
DonBugen:
I'm not quite sure that an archangel would be bearing false witness, actually.
As for this suggestion... interesting. Not so much for it being seven, but just for the fact that it's a voice inside Harry.
My personal take? We already know that Harry's got his alter-ID sitting in the back of his mind, waiting for violence and lust and power. I have a feeling that in this case, the main narrator is mostly Id-Harry, and it's the Ego who's stating this, trying to pull back on the reigns. And the only reason why it appears as another voice is because Harry's just a kinda messed-up person who already personifies his splintered personality.
Yuillegan:
Plausible, very plausible. I think it is highly likely there have been beings affecting events behind the scenes since the very beginning. In fact they pretty much had to have been, in cases like Uriel, because that it all they do all day long. They are always working. Just because Harry with his incredibly, hilariously limited perception is unaware is no bench mark for them NOT affecting events behind the scenes.
In terms of in the text, they are good possibilities but hard to prove. Just as easily, as some have pointed out, his conscience or sub-conscious etc. Jim doesn't tend to entirely let every act of choice be influenced, in fact he tends to highlight it massively when it does occur.
We should also not forget, that when Uriel in Ghost Story reveals the seven words whispered to him by the Fallen, that scene is different and that thought does not actually occur in the text during Changes. Even though we learn his memory was altered by Molly, that scene does not actually exist in the text of Changes.
And I do agree, just because Uriel called Mab a liar doesn't mean Mab though she was lying. She simply assumed what she said was truth. I don't think the fae have to tell objective truths, only believe that they do. Otherwise the fae would be WAY more powerful than they are. I think the only beings that might fall into that category are beings with Intellectus (funnily enough, like Archangels and the Mothers).
I don't believe Uriel can lie. Both as a limit of the universe/his being and his code of conduct. The Fallen are liars. That is one of their main point of difference. Whether Uriel can lie to immortals is another thing, but I suspect it would only be lies of omission etc rather than outright lies. It is a sin after all.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 31, 2019, 02:15:00 PM ---The voice of his conscience speaking... Or even the alternate Harry that turns up in his fever dreams. Though that Harry may seem darker in a lot of respects, he speaks the truth.. It is the voice of free will, the choice was Harry's to make, the simple maybe even satisfying killing but for a price, he could never look at himself in the same way ever again..
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I read it as an internal dialog. It gives the reader the feeling of two voices, one urging Harry to kill, another, Harry's true self, reminding him of what he is and what he stands to lose. This presages the Winter Mantle. Mab's lie is a lie of omission. It's in the thing that she doesn't say.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on April 09, 2019, 01:09:41 AM ---Not necessarily. Here is the definition of "lie" I found:
If the seven words were using the second definition of "lie" then Uriel is in the clear to say them. We have a WoJ that Mab could say that she could change Harry because she believed it to be the case, given her past experience with Winter Knights. Thus, Uriel was just saying that her claim was founded on a mistaken impression, which indeed it was.
--- End quote ---
The difference between a lie and a mere mistaken impression or falsehood is in the knowledge or intent. In the example you used, the married woman would be "living a lie" if, for example, she was pretending to love her husband when she knew that her feelings weren't real. Or maybe her spouse was a criminal and she was pretending her spouse was an upstanding citizen. Either way, it is about willful blindness. I don't think the Fae can do that - their subconscious would force them to confront the truth by preventing them from lying. Mab would have been physically unable to speak those words if she was merely hoping to live a lie by lying to herself.
--- Quote from: Avernite on April 09, 2019, 05:58:43 AM ---Why wouldn't Uriel be able to lie? He's the spook, I think he CAN lie, just not in a way that compromises Free Will.
--- End quote ---
I think DonBugen handled this question quite well, but even assuming Uriel can bear false witness on some occasions, lying to somebody when you are telling them something it is extremely important for them to believe is not very smart. E.g., 2 + 2 = 3, trust me, Mab can't change who you are.
--- Quote from: Avernite on April 09, 2019, 05:58:43 AM ---More importantly, he says lies. He doesn't say 'Mab lies' he says 'Mab's words are lies'. A semantic difference, but if Mab is wrong and doesn't know it, you could argue her words are still lies withou Mab lying.
--- End quote ---
Mab lied, Mab's words were lies, and Mab told a lie are all synonymous. The fact that you felt the need to specify that "you could argue" is a clear indicator that "semantics" is a poor justification for using the word Lies. Either JB made a poor word choice by using "Lies" over the equally available and more accurate choice of "Wrong," or JB chose the word lies because Uriel and was not the actual speaker and the word choice was tailored to the character speaking. JB isn't perfect, it's possible he just made a writing mistake, but in this case I don't think he did.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 09, 2019, 08:07:16 AM ---We should also not forget, that when Uriel in Ghost Story reveals the seven words whispered to him by the Fallen, that scene is different and that thought does not actually occur in the text during Changes. Even though we learn his memory was altered by Molly, that scene does not actually exist in the text of Changes.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, but why is that important other than that JB skipped the scene in Changes for story-telling purposes?
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 09, 2019, 08:07:16 AM ---And I do agree, just because Uriel called Mab a liar doesn't mean Mab though she was lying. She simply assumed what she said was truth. I don't think the fae have to tell objective truths, only believe that they do. Otherwise the fae would be WAY more powerful than they are. I think the only beings that might fall into that category are beings with Intellectus (funnily enough, like Archangels and the Mothers).
--- End quote ---
If Mab didn't think she was lying, then Mab wasn't lying, she was simply wrong. Telling a lie requires knowledge of the falsity of the statement.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 09, 2019, 11:27:37 AM ---Mab's lie is a lie of omission.
--- End quote ---
That just doesn't fit. I don't think Mab was being clever and trying to mislead Harry into believing something that wasn't true, I think Mab believed what she said was true and she was simply wrong, because she doesn't truly understand free will.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Cozarkian on April 09, 2019, 02:37:32 PM ---That just doesn't fit. I don't think Mab was being clever and trying to mislead Harry into believing something that wasn't true, I think Mab believed what she said was true and she was simply wrong, because she doesn't truly understand free will.
--- End quote ---
Mother Summer tells Harry that it is possible to master the mantle, that in fact, it had been done. And given that, Mab had to know.
--- Quote ---Mother Summer said. "Do you have a chance to remain yourself despite the tendency of the Mantle to mold your thoughts and desires? All Knights, Winter and Summer, have that chance. Most fail."
--- End quote ---
That quote is from Cold Days. It has two meanings. It tells Harry that he can remain himself and that Mab herself may yet retain some part of her humanity.
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