The Death of Margaret Le Fay

[morriswalters]

They may not be, but I don't see a reason that Malcolm would be needed to justify Lea's involvement when we know that Margaret spent a century or so interacting directly with fae.

Time only mattered to Maggie.  Lea and Mab are into the long game.  If Maggie was able to avoid the clutches of the White King, one can assume that she could avoid becoming obligated to the Fae Court.  Then the line of reasoning would be this, Lea or Mab wanted something that only Maggie could give them.  A child. Malcolm was to be the father.  Because he brought something to the table that the Queens needed.  Whatever quality that might be.

[Mr. Death]

Time only mattered to Maggie.  Lea and Mab are into the long game.  If Maggie was able to avoid the clutches of the White King, one can assume that she could avoid becoming obligated to the Fae Court.  Then the line of reasoning would be this, Lea or Mab wanted something that only Maggie could give them.  A child. Malcolm was to be the father.  Because he brought something to the table that the Queens needed.  Whatever quality that might be.

She did not avoid the clutches of the White King. She had his kid. She escaped, eventually, but only after she demonstrated the massive stupidity necessary to screw the White King on purpose, and the massive arrogance to believe she could get away with it.

We can't assume she avoided becoming obligated to the Fae Court. In fact, I think the opposite is practically a given. You don't spend 100 years traipsing around Faerie -- not when you're as arrogant and shortsighted as we know that Maggie Sr. was -- without picking up obligations and getting mixed up with the Fae. I mean, her nickname practically means, "I got mixed up with the fae."

Seriously. She made mistakes. She made a ton of mistakes. She effed up so bad that she ended up running from damn near everybody she knew, and then got her ass murdered. We have no reason to believe she's some master chessmaster who went to her death saying, "All according to plan."

She was a teenager going, "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO DAD!" until she had to run for her life.

[morriswalters]

She did get away. And she neutered the colossal p***k to boot.  And the chain ended with him being a sock puppet for Lara.  Karma is a b****h.  I call that a win.  However other than that you may be right.  We won't know unless JB decides to share.  I'm just trying to find Malcolm's place in this.  I'm not a real big believer in happy chance.

[Mr. Death]

She did get away.

And where is she now? Right, dead. After spending years helping the evil, sadistic, daughter-raping, son-murdering bastard doing God only knows what because she thought she knew better than her dad.

Oh, and at some point during this relationship she was working with, or trying to work with, one of the worst, most sadistic and evil Red Court vampires that we know of, who would later try to wipe her entire remaining family off the face of the planet.

Yup, the very picture of foresight, she was.

And she neutered the colossal p***k to boot.

As he murdered her. If anything, that's at tie.

And the chain ended with him being a sock puppet for Lara.  Karma is a b****h.

Not something Maggie planned or really had any hand in, being 25-ish years dead at the time.

I call that a win.

One that cost her life, and didn't become a win until Lord Raith very nearly murdered both her sons. If it's anyone's win, it's Harry's.

Her death curse worked out to a win "eventually" (and only if you ignore that now Lara has the potential to be much worse, since she's competent); that doesn't mean she gets credit for planning the whole thing out. If anything, it was a desperate, last-breath retaliation.

However other than that you may be right.  We won't know unless JB decides to share.  I'm just trying to find Malcolm's place in this.  I'm not a real big believer in happy chance.

He has a place in this.

He's a good, mortal man that redeemed Maggie with his love.

He doesn't need to be supernaturally connected. He doesn't need to be personally powerful. He doesn't need to be part of someone else's grand plan.

Jim reminds us -- constantly -- that mortal free will and just Doing The Right Thing can and does make a real difference. That is what Malcolm is. That's his place in this. He's proof that the biggest difference doesn't have to be who can sling the most fire around, who has the most faeries on her Rolodex, or who can plan 27 steps ahead.

It can be just anyone, who decides to be a good person and do the right thing.

It's the reason Aragorn and Gandalf aren't the heroes of Lord of the Rings -- it's Frodo and Sam.

[Wizard Sibelis]

EDITED BY paranetonline

If this is in reference to the soulgaze between Harry and Thomas, the words "empty" and "night" don't appear anywhere in the description of the demon in the mirror, let alone put together as in the White Court's customary curse.

Oddly, perhaps, for a book centered around the White Court, the term "Empty night" only actually appears once in the whole text.

The passage doesn't even describe any sort of sky, let alone one that could be interpreted even loosely as an "empty night."

Oh i'm sorry your so fixated on that word, I made a connective error because I see something you do not. (also I know precisely wtf empty night refers to, it's a vampire curse in ann rice's novels used to describe a night without prey, a night without mortal kind, thanks though)

...but looking closer revealed that rather than black and white marble, the place was made from dark, dried blood and sun-bleached bones

seems of the same quality as

...beyond the wall the land was mad of dust and mud and loose shale... ...those layers and mountains of shale? They weren't shale. They were bones.

Which also has as a feature

Though the land was somehow lit, the sky was as black as Cat Sith's conscience, without a single star or speck of light to be seen.

It seems kosher to me despite the logical leap from deduction ya'll just haven't done yet.
But I disgress, Since Mirror Harry is calling others from the outside, basically willing them into being from another reality, the passage itself is of course from the outside, if the mechanism is the mirror itself, then it's simple enough to deduce.

==================================================================

The brown text is where you're being antagonistic. Here's what you could have said that would have been less controversial.
My bad, I made a connective error.  When reading this <first quote> I made a parallel with this <second quote> which associates with Empty Night with <third quote>.  I think there could be a connection between them.

The purple text is where you're presenting facts from another series or your own speculation as facts in the Dresdenverse.    Either might be accurate in the long run, but in the meantime, you're not arguing in good faith.  Building upon theories is fine and good, but don't be dismissive of others if they don't recognize your theory as fact until it's proven true.

In short, stop being antagonistic.  This is the last warning. 

[Blaze]

 Wizard Sibelis, how many times do we need to remind you of the policies? 

Be civil. 

Blaze, as Mod

[morriswalters]

And where is she now? Right, dead. After spending years helping the evil, sadistic, daughter-raping, son-murdering bastard doing God only knows what because she thought she knew better than her dad.

Oh, and at some point during this relationship she was working with, or trying to work with, one of the worst, most sadistic and evil Red Court vampires that we know of, who would later try to wipe her entire remaining family off the face of the planet.

Yup, the very picture of foresight, she was.

There wouldn't be much of a redemption arc if she hadn't fouled up first.  And obviously you have access to material which I haven't read.

As he murdered her. If anything, that's at tie.

Sometimes winning is just not losing.  So if she had two years with a man that loved her, that was two years she wouldn't have had otherwise.  As to if she had planned for Raith to become Lara's sock puppet, it misses the point.  She couldn't know how it would turn out, but had she failed as Eb had, Lara would have never had the chance.  And as long as Thomas could stay alive Raith  was prime for a back stab from someone.  In a sense, if indeed JB is thinking this way, it was only a matter of time.  Since Maggie was a mortal she  was born to die, Raith could have lived forever.  Who lost more?  YMMV.

Jim reminds us -- constantly -- that mortal free will and just Doing The Right Thing can and does make a real difference.

Well when JB actually has Harry doing that I might buy in. Up to Skin Game Harry has treated people poorly. He basically threw Molly under the bus in Changes.  And JB then wrote Ghost Story just to point it out so we didn't miss it.  Then he reinforced it by having Mab point it out to Harry in Cold Days.  In a number of ways Harry is much the same way as you have described his mother.  He treats with the fae, has Lara Raith as an ally(evil vampire).  Sponsored Marcone as a free holding Lord(murdering crime lord).  And made a deal with a so called evil fairy when his daughter was at risk.

Malcolm may well be just an average Joe.  I kind of hope so.  We'll see.

[peregrine]

In The Warrior Uriel lays it all out in front of Harry how his doing good helps people in ways he can't see.  And since Harry can't see them, obviously we don't either.

[groinkick]

A wizard (Margaret) cursed Lord Raith.  Could another wizard remove it? 

[Mr. Death]

There wouldn't be much of a redemption arc if she hadn't fouled up first.  And obviously you have access to material which I haven't read.

All that's from Blood Rites and Changes -- she had Thomas and left when he was 5, so she was with Lord Raith for that long at the very least, and Ebenezer describes a meeting where she was trying to get Ebenezer in on a scheme she was concocting that involved both Lord Raith and Arianna.

And Ebenezer is pretty clear that she struck out on her own at least partly out of rebellion against him, her father, personally.

Sometimes winning is just not losing.  So if she had two years with a man that loved her, that was two years she wouldn't have had otherwise.  As to if she had planned for Raith to become Lara's sock puppet, it misses the point.  She couldn't know how it would turn out, but had she failed as Eb had, Lara would have never had the chance.  And as long as Thomas could stay alive Raith  was prime for a back stab from someone.  In a sense, if indeed JB is thinking this way, it was only a matter of time.  Since Maggie was a mortal she  was born to die, Raith could have lived forever.  Who lost more?  YMMV.

I'm not denying that the Death Curse she placed on him was clever -- it was, as defiant last-attacks go, pretty brilliant, and was probably only possible because of their, ahem, intimate familiarity with one another.

I'm just saying it was probably more of a final "F*CK YOU" than it was looking into his future defeat. But that's my read on Maggie -- I get the sense that she wasn't really that smart about things until maybe right toward the end. Clever, sure. Powerful, sure. But she made a lot of really, really bad decisions that she should have known better about.

Well when JB actually has Harry doing that I might buy in. Up to Skin Game Harry has treated people poorly. He basically threw Molly under the bus in Changes.  And JB then wrote Ghost Story just to point it out so we didn't miss it.  Then he reinforced it by having Mab point it out to Harry in Cold Days.  In a number of ways Harry is much the same way as you have described his mother.  He treats with the fae, has Lara Raith as an ally(evil vampire).  Sponsored Marcone as a free holding Lord(murdering crime lord).  And made a deal with a so called evil fairy when his daughter was at risk.

Right, and as you say, he learned a hard lesson about that. The difference is, he ... well, I guess he didn't learn it before he died, per se, but he got sent back for another go anyway.

The way I look at the difference between Harry and Maggie Sr. is, when Harry does those things, we see his inner monologue about how it's a tough choice he has to make, and it's the lesser of a variable number of evils. The sense I've gotten about Maggie Sr. is more that she went into things with the attitude of, "I can handle this, because I'm just that smart and awesome." Now, granted, we haven't seen into her head and only have second-hand accounts, but like I said, that's the sense I've gotten from the evidence we've seen.

And as Peregrine pointed out, Uriel makes it explicit.

And it's not just about what Harry, personally, does. Look at the folks he calls "good people," like the Carpenters and Murphy. How many times has Harry survived because one of his mortal friends stood up and decided to Do The Right Thing?

How many lives were saved just from Butters squaring off with Cassius?

[Mr. Death]

A wizard (Margaret) cursed Lord Raith.  Could another wizard remove it?

Possibly. It'd probably be a question of power and scale -- a regular Death Curse is essentially a human sacrifice ritual with the caster as the sacrifice, so undoing it might likewise require a human sacrifice. Now, I don't exactly expect Lord Raith to be squeamish about that, but this one is also tied into a birth and two lives. I have no idea how that would affect the mechanics of it.

[morriswalters]

The question of if it was her death curse that crippled Raith will have to stand until  JB decides to lay it out.  She could have set the binding before she left and simply used her death curse to trigger it.  I don't know.

As to how smart she was, she evidently had some respect from her peers, including her father.  She created Harry's ruby with a map of the ways.  And her nickname might indicate grudging respect in how she dealt with the fae.  JB has said a lot about her, but not in a way that makes her a fully composed character.

How many lives were saved just from Butters squaring off with Cassius?

Frodo be damned, Harry is the hero, so of course  it would be written that way.   

More seriously, I understand the point you are making.  I just wish JB would get Harry to adulthood and quit fooling about.  He acts like some 10 year olds at times.  And you should know, the Butter's plot line has stretched my credulity to my elastic limit.(I'm aware that this makes me an army of 1 )

[Mr. Death]

As forumghost points out here, Jim has laid it out. There's really no remaining ambiguity there as to what Maggie Sr. did to Lord Raith.

She was dumb enough to think sleeping with Lord Raith was a good idea, and dumb enough to think any kind of alliance with the Red Court was a good idea. Ebenezer had respect for her judgment ... until he realized what she was doing, and then didn't.

When I say she wasn't smart, I'm not talking about her ability with magic. It seems fairly evident that, as far as her ability with the art goes, she was up there with the best of them. I'm talking about her judgment and foresight, which seems to have been severely lacking.

And her nickname might indicate that -- but to my knowledge, we haven't seen anyone, including Jim, who's said so. Jim's basically said you get that kind of nickname because you deal with the Fae, because you're crazy, or because you're crazy enough to deal with the Fae. His description didn't have much to do with "respect" unless I'm forgetting something.

[groinkick]

As forumghost points out here, Jim has laid it out. There's really no remaining ambiguity there as to what Maggie Sr. did to Lord Raith.

She was dumb enough to think sleeping with Lord Raith was a good idea, and dumb enough to think any kind of alliance with the Red Court was a good idea. Ebenezer had respect for her judgment ... until he realized what she was doing, and then didn't.

When I say she wasn't smart, I'm not talking about her ability with magic. It seems fairly evident that, as far as her ability with the art goes, she was up there with the best of them. I'm talking about her judgment and foresight, which seems to have been severely lacking.

And her nickname might indicate that -- but to my knowledge, we haven't seen anyone, including Jim, who's said so. Jim's basically said you get that kind of nickname because you deal with the Fae, because you're crazy, or because you're crazy enough to deal with the Fae. His description didn't have much to do with "respect" unless I'm forgetting something.

Either that or she's actually ahead of the White Council, and could see what was happening long before it's been realized.  She may have seen the threat decades ago that is just now being realized, the Black Council.  She could have seen it unfolding from members of the White Council, and couldn't trust them (Except her father who she wanted to bring on board), members of the White Court (Raith), and the Red Court could have seen it unfolding within their own power structures.  We know at least one within the White Court called Cowl "master", at it was at a Red Court ceremony that Cowl presented at least one gift that was Nemfected.

[Mr. Death]

Either that or she's actually ahead of the White Council, and could see what was happening long before it's been realized.  She may have seen the threat decades ago that is just now being realized, the Black Council.  She could have seen it unfolding from members of the White Council, and couldn't trust them (Except her father who she wanted to bring on board), members of the White Court (Raith), and the Red Court could have seen it unfolding within their own power structures.  We know at least one within the White Court called Cowl "master", at it was at a Red Court ceremony that Cowl presented at least one gift that was Nemfected.

Most of what we've seen and heard of her doing points more to her being part of the Black Council, not working against it.

Look at her allies: Lord Raith (powered by an Outsider, which we know the Black Council uses) and Red Court (again, uses Outsiders in direct cooperation with Black Council operatives).

She thought the White Council was too restrictive, a viewpoint that Cowl (Black Council operative) shares.