Did Maggie REALLY curse Raith?

[groinkick]

I was just thinking of a couple of things from the books, possibly clues that maybe Maggie didn't actually curse Raith...  The clues are more like things that were dropped in the book so that a reader can say "OH I see so Jim didn't just trick us, there was actual evidence in earlier books".


Ok these are just small clues, and idea for discussion. 

Clue #1.  Leah can subdue vampire demons.  Leah was able to put Red Court vamp demons to sleep.  Harry wanted to learn it but she said it would cost him for that kind of information. 

Clue #2.  Cowl can block a death curse.  Harry was told that Cowl had blocked a death curse before by Kumori

So here is my little theory.  Maggie didn't use a death curse on Raith.  She made a deal with Leah to punish Lord Raith (We learned from Mab's example that Sidhe take their time with drawing out their punishment).  She used her death curse on Cowl who was able to defend himself against it.  In a way this makes some sense.  Raith can tap into the demon's power but because it's "asleep" it cannot feed.  I think Leah would take great delight in watching him slowly go mad over time.

[peregrine]

Raith certainly thought that killing Thomas and Harry would break his curse, not something likely to be the case with Leah being the one who did it.

Plus, the Red Court style need not be the same as White, and if his demon was asleep, I doubt Raith would be able to draw anything from it.  When Leah did it to Susan and Martin, they were entirely knocked out, and that was when they weren't even fully vampire.  Something as closely bound as a WCV, I doubt he'd be up and active.

Also, what reason would Maggie have to throw her curse at Cowl?  Or rather, other than the fact that he survived one suggests that he was the target vs the far more likely culprit?

[groinkick]

Raith certainly thought that killing Thomas and Harry would break his curse, not something likely to be the case with Leah being the one who did it.

Well just as Harry has been wrong within the stories Raith may also be.

Plus, the Red Court style need not be the same as White, and if his demon was asleep, I doubt Raith would be able to draw anything from it.  When Leah did it to Susan and Martin, they were entirely knocked out, and that was when they weren't even fully vampire.  Something as closely bound as a WCV, I doubt he'd be up and active.

She proved she had control over such a demon.  She may, or may not be able to manipulate how much she effects them.

Also, what reason would Maggie have to throw her curse at Cowl?  Or rather, other than the fact that he survived one suggests that he was the target vs the far more likely culprit?

We don't know who Cowl is yet so it's hard to determine what her reasons could be.  I could be mistaken but Maggie along with Raith, and it appeared the Red Court, and Maggie wanted Eb to be involved with something big.  Not too big of a stretch for Cowl to have been involved  Either that or Maggie knew of the Black Council and targeted Cowl because he was a big threat even back then.  The only thing we know is he defended himself from a Death Curse.

[forumghost]

I mean:

What death curses are able to do? How powerful can they be? Why don’t more wizards just use die as their curse? Its short and kills your killer.

They sometimes do.   See what happened to all the vampires around Simon when they assaulted his compound immediately prior to the onstage events in Summer Knight.

However, while taking your killer down with you might be the most immediately gratifying thing to do with a death curse (assuming that they haven’t up and prepared to defend against that kind of magical retaliation, which only a real moron *wouldn’t* do if they knew they were off to murder a wizard), it might not be the SMARTEST thing you could do with it.  Still, magic in the Dresden universe is only as formidable as a wizard’s imagination can make it.

I mean, Maggie’s death curse on Raith did /more/ than render him virtually powerless. It freaking crippled the entire White Court by rendering its head executive suddenly unwilling to get aggressive.  It took that same executive’s focus and warped it from an outwardly-oriented expansionist agenda (What, did you really think Raith just bumped into Maggie at a /bar/ somewhere?) to one of frantic power-defense, paranoia, and infighting.  Had she merely killed Raith, another vampire much like him would simply have stepped into his shoes.  Instead, her curse sandbagged the entire White Court for two or three /decades/.

It isn’t until the events of White Night that the White Court really begins to . . .

. . .but perhaps I’ve said too much.   

Anyway, Maggie’s curse, of course, also made Raith suffer.  Horribly.  It made him live in a constant state of drug-withdrawal-level hunger, and fear, and eventually reduced him to outright slavery to someone with centuries of comeuppance to dish out.  But that was just icing on the cake.
Jim

WoJ is that she did, so it's not just a 'character x is mistaken' thing. Unless of course you want to pull the "Jim is Lying about Everything" card, but if that's the case then you can argue literally anything, so...

I mean, the fact that Lea is able to affect a Red Court Infected's demon doesn't prove that she can affect a White Court's Demon, because they're completely different Species. That's like suggesting because Whales and Plankton both live in the Sea they're both the same.

As for Cowl, knowing that he survived a death curse shows nothing. He's one of Kemmler's disciples and a couple-hundred-years-old Wizard. He's almost certainly been hit by multiple death Curses in his time.

Hell, even Harry got hit by one before (Granted one cast by a scrublord). In the end a Death Curse is just a spell with extra juju behind it after all, it's not impossible to survive really.

[groinkick]

Hell, even Harry got hit by one before (Granted one cast by a scrublord). In the end a Death Curse is just a spell with extra juju behind it after all, it's not impossible to survive really.

The curse Harry was hit by wasn't meant to kill him.  Just to "die alone".  I doubt very many if any on the Council have actually blocked a death curse.  What's the point of a weapon like that if it's not nearly unstoppable?  Up to that point in the series Harry had indicated that anyone that had a death curse pointed at them was toast.

[forumghost]

The curse Harry was hit by wasn't meant to kill him.  Just to "die alone".  I doubt very many if any on the Council have actually blocked a death curse.  What's the point of a weapon like that if it's not nearly unstoppable?  Up to that point in the series Harry had indicated that anyone that had a death curse pointed at them was toast.

Yeah but Harry is also deathly allergic to knowledge of any kind.

Book 1: "Yo Bob, what types of Vampires are there?"

It's like, c'mon dude, you spent years living in a city where one was a major crime boss, and you never looked into it until now?

Anyway, my point was that (based on what we know) a Deathcurse is really just a regular curse on Steroids. So it should follow the same rules. If you have a big backer (eg Lord Raith) they can protect you from it. If you have sufficient protections (eg powerful enough Wards) they can protect you from it, and so on.

eg: Maggie Sr's Death Curse would have slid off of Raith if she'd tried to blow him up, she had to work around his protections.

[morriswalters]

Death curses are kind of wonky.  We've only seen one character kill without the benefit of any obvious cause.  Eb, in changes, when using the Black Staff.

[peregrine]

Death curses are kind of wonky.  We've only seen one character kill without the benefit of any obvious cause.  Eb, in changes, when using the Black Staff.

That's not a death curse.  A death curse is not magic used to kill.  It's dying used to magic.

[groinkick]

Death curses are kind of wonky.  We've only seen one character kill without the benefit of any obvious cause.  Eb, in changes, when using the Black Staff.

Simon used his death curse according to the White Council.  He was able to kill a bunch of Red Court Nobles with it....  So not only did he smoke a single powerful enemy but apparently a lot of them.  So not a small thing there.

Eb using magic that didn't require him to die was able to kill a couple hundred people...  That goes to show what a wizard can do with magic, and that wasn't even a death curse which is supposed to be much more powerful.  Again this displays just how much damage a death curse can do which means to defend against one is to display a very powerful capability that few would have.

[morriswalters]

That's not a death curse.  A death curse is not magic used to kill.  It's dying used to magic.

Yes, I'm aware.  But it's the only use of Magic to kill that didn't leave an obvious cause of death.  If it was easy to kill someone without an obvious use of magic such as fireballs or ripping a heart from a chest and so on, then why did Liver Spots not just kill Harry with his death curse?  Thus my belief that JB's use of death curses is wonky.

[forumghost]

Yes, I'm aware.  But it's the only use of Magic to kill that didn't leave an obvious cause of death.  If it was easy to kill someone without an obvious use of magic such as fireballs or ripping a heart from a chest and so on, then why did Liver Spots not just kill Harry with his death curse?  Thus my belief that JB's use of death curses is wonky.

Nah, Liver Spots is just a loser scrublord and couldn't manage enough oomph to kill Harry outright, even with a Death Curse.

[groinkick]

Yes, I'm aware.  But it's the only use of Magic to kill that didn't leave an obvious cause of death.  If it was easy to kill someone without an obvious use of magic such as fireballs or ripping a heart from a chest and so on, then why did Liver Spots not just kill Harry with his death curse?  Thus my belief that JB's use of death curses is wonky.

A death curse is just what a wizard can do in any given amount of time with all the magic they can muster.  A wizard who has 10 minutes to use their death curse can do a whole lot more than someone with a few seconds to work a spell...  Also it comes down to the wizard in general.  Eb, Gatekeeper, LtW could probably unleash a death curse that Dresden couldn't even fathom even if his "gas tank" is larger than theirs. 

Liver spots just wasn't a very good wizard, and didn't have any time to focus what power he did have before Mouse killed him.

[morriswalters]

Nah, Liver Spots is just a loser scrublord and couldn't manage enough oomph to kill Harry outright, even with a Death Curse.

Loser scrublord.  I like it.

[Mr. Death]

Nah, Liver Spots is just a loser scrublord and couldn't manage enough oomph to kill Harry outright, even with a Death Curse.

Considering how much punishment Harry had already taken, that Cassius couldn't drum up enough power with his own death to actually kill Harry really says something about how crummy of a sorcerer he really was.

A death curse is just what a wizard can do in any given amount of time with all the magic they can muster.  A wizard who has 10 minutes to use their death curse can do a whole lot more than someone with a few seconds to work a spell...  Also it comes down to the wizard in general.  Eb, Gatekeeper, LtW could probably unleash a death curse that Dresden couldn't even fathom even if his "gas tank" is larger than theirs. 

Liver spots just wasn't a very good wizard, and didn't have any time to focus what power he did have before Mouse killed him.

As I understand it, it's mostly limited by your imagination.

RPG mechanics time:

(click to show/hide)

In the RPG, a death curse is treated the same as a thaumaturgic ritual. Now, with a normal thaumaturgic ritual, you take your time, gather a bunch of elements for it, and cast over a long period of time mostly for the sake of your own safety, because if you blow a roll, either you eat all the power to make it work (and you probably die), or your 30-shift ritual goes down the drain and blows up everything around you.

(Sidenote: This is another reason more wizards is better for casting -- you can divide up the backlash if someone screws up. 30 shifts of damage will obliterate most lone wizards, but divided among 13, it's barely a headache.)

With a death curse, you're already dying, so none of the "careful" stuff is necessary -- you can cast the whole thing, instantly, and just pour all your resources into pure power. You essentially use yourself as a sacrifice, so you get power for every potential consequence you haven't used yet (20 shifts on a base human alone), plus some more based on your stats (for someone like Harry, that's another , plus you can tag every consequence you have used, and can throw all your fate points into it because, hey, it's not like you're gonna need them afterward.

The result is something like a 30-ish shift effect for the average wizard; for reference, the heart-exploding spell from Storm Front was 35 shifts, while a "strong" fireblast like Harry's is 6. So 30 shifts is a lot to work with, especially if you're not directly attacking.

[groinkick]

Considering how much punishment Harry had already taken, that Cassius couldn't drum up enough power with his own death to actually kill Harry really says something about how crummy of a sorcerer he really was.
As I understand it, it's mostly limited by your imagination.

RPG mechanics time:

(click to show/hide)

In the RPG, a death curse is treated the same as a thaumaturgic ritual. Now, with a normal thaumaturgic ritual, you take your time, gather a bunch of elements for it, and cast over a long period of time mostly for the sake of your own safety, because if you blow a roll, either you eat all the power to make it work (and you probably die), or your 30-shift ritual goes down the drain and blows up everything around you.

(Sidenote: This is another reason more wizards is better for casting -- you can divide up the backlash if someone screws up. 30 shifts of damage will obliterate most lone wizards, but divided among 13, it's barely a headache.)

With a death curse, you're already dying, so none of the "careful" stuff is necessary -- you can cast the whole thing, instantly, and just pour all your resources into pure power. You essentially use yourself as a sacrifice, so you get power for every potential consequence you haven't used yet (20 shifts on a base human alone), plus some more based on your stats (for someone like Harry, that's another , plus you can tag every consequence you have used, and can throw all your fate points into it because, hey, it's not like you're gonna need them afterward.

The result is something like a 30-ish shift effect for the average wizard; for reference, the heart-exploding spell from Storm Front was 35 shifts, while a "strong" fireblast like Harry's is 6. So 30 shifts is a lot to work with, especially if you're not directly attacking.

If a death curse for the average wizard is like a 30, while the heart exploding curse in SF was a 35, what the heck was the level of power Eb used when he killed a couple hundred people with a single motion, and didn't appear even slightly fatigued....