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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on September 16, 2018, 09:52:29 PM
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Margaret le Fay died due to the powerful malacchio curse, like the Barabass curse, that causes horrible deadly misfortune on the recipient. This spell was done by the White King Lord Raith, possibly with the help of a cult of practitioners and potentially even He Who Walks Behind.
However, malacchio can mean "evil eye". Who has an evil eye in mythology? Well one interesting individual does: King Balor of the Fomor. Known for his singular eye that killed all it looked upon, he was a ruthless tyrant and terrifying opponent. But what if it was not his eye, or even his physical eye, but the eye was a power he was given through his daemonic (Outsider) heritage from HWWB? This could make a lot of things very personal for Dresden.
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I don't really think there's a connection there. "Evil eye" is the term that a guy who really had no idea about the supernatural came up with, based on things his Italian parents/grandparents talked about. He wasn't exactly speaking from knowledge or authority.
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I'm not entirely sure she so much died as let herself die; possibly to meet one of the preconditions for making a starborn.
Harry was reasonably confident he could bounce the entropy curse back at its originator with that spell centered on the mirror that he tried to throw up around the film studio, until Trixie interfered with his props and held him up at gunpoint during the spell. Maggie evidently had forewarning that it was coming too, to make her deal with Lea. So one kind of has to ask, why didn't she just do her own version of 'return to sender'?
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I'm not entirely sure she so much died as let herself die; possibly to meet one of the preconditions for making a starborn.
Harry was reasonably confident he could bounce the entropy curse back at its originator with that spell centered on the mirror that he tried to throw up around the film studio, until Trixie interfered with his props and held him up at gunpoint during the spell. Maggie evidently had forewarning that it was coming too, to make her deal with Lea. So one kind of has to ask, why didn't she just do her own version of 'return to sender'?
Harry did that with hours to plan and prepare.
Maggie didn't need forewarning -- certainly not hours of it -- to make a deal with Lea.
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I'm not entirely sure she so much died as let herself die; possibly to meet one of the preconditions for making a starborn.
Harry was reasonably confident he could bounce the entropy curse back at its originator with that spell centered on the mirror that he tried to throw up around the film studio, until Trixie interfered with his props and held him up at gunpoint during the spell. Maggie evidently had forewarning that it was coming too, to make her deal with Lea. So one kind of has to ask, why didn't she just do her own version of 'return to sender'?
She was in labor at the time. That can sorta distract someone.
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Yes, she was in labor at the time, but also she had to know once she left Raith that she was a target.
Her death curse wasn't something thought up in the moment. She had to have a total understanding of his weakness to do something neither her father nor her son could do, hurt him.. Not for revenge but to protect her sons... So she did what most mothers would do, she sacrificed herself, willingly.
So in my opinion it wasn't a simple manner of tracing back a curse to block it, even in labor she might have pulled it off.. She allowed it to kill her, because that was the only way to cripple Raith..
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One thing I find curious is in I think every example of the curse in action the death of the person was nearly instant. How'd she survive long enough to make a deal, and direct her curse? Considering how dangerous she was you would think the objective would be to kill as quickly as possible.
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One thing I find curious is in I think every example of the curse in action the death of the person was nearly instant. How'd she survive long enough to make a deal, and direct her curse? Considering how dangerous she was you would think the objective would be to kill as quickly as possible.
Which points to her knowing as soon as she got pregnant or even if she never did, she knew Raith
was going to kill her at some point. However I think it is no secret that Mab was in on her creating a star child so it's protection would be part of any deal.
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One thing I find curious is in I think every example of the curse in action the death of the person was nearly instant. How'd she survive long enough to make a deal, and direct her curse? Considering how dangerous she was you would think the objective would be to kill as quickly as possible.
Well, if Papa Raith took her out with the same curse he used in White Knight, it would require time to set up. She probably knew it was coming and set some of that stuff up in advance. Or maybe she made the deal with Lea while Lea was practicing her Midwifery or something.
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One thing I find curious is in I think every example of the curse in action the death of the person was nearly instant. How'd she survive long enough to make a deal, and direct her curse? Considering how dangerous she was you would think the objective would be to kill as quickly as possible.
Not always. The person who was swarmed by bees didn't die instantly. And in the case of the woman in the shower, Harry had time to intervene and save her even after the curse had hit.
From what we've seen, the Entropy Curse made it look like Margaret was killed in childbirth -- that's not an instant thing, either. Most likely, it created some complication during the birth that was inevitably, but not instantly, fatal.
We've also seen powerful beings able to mess with time, including powerful Faeries. I think it's in the realm of possibility that Lea was able to subjectively extend the time she had to speak with Margaret, not unlike Lash did to Harry in White Night.
We also know that Margaret made a bad deal with Lea, which, to me, would indicate that she didn't have a ton of time to work it out. Bad deals are more likely to happen when you're on the spot, and there's no better time crunch to provide incentive than impending death.
I agree that the concept of her Death Curse was probably something she thought up before; but probably not as a Death Curse. She probably figured it out as a thaumaturgic ritual, in case she had to go up against Lord Raith (Like how Batman has contingencies for others in the Justice League), then used it as her Death Curse when the moment came and she didn't have time to gather other power and materials.
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Maggie had two years of running with Harry's father to prepare to die. She knew that the clock was ticking when she broke with Raith. She was going to get killed sooner or later. She made her peace and then she made her plans. She must have known she couldn't kill Lord Raith with Magic, and we know what she did. If I were plotting it I would set up Lea's actions as payment for some favor Maggie did for Lea. Something we don't know about yet./shrug/
In any case she had time to make the amulet and find a way to tell Thomas of his brother. More interesting is Harry's father.
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Maggie had two years of running with Harry's father to prepare to die. She knew that the clock was ticking when she broke with Raith. She was going to get killed sooner or later. She made her peace and then she made her plans. She must have known she couldn't kill Lord Raith with Magic, and we know what she did. If I were plotting it I would set up Lea's actions as payment for some favor Maggie did for Lea. Something we don't know about yet./shrug/
In any case she had time to make the amulet and find a way to tell Thomas of his brother. More interesting is Harry's father.
Agreed
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I've often toyed with the idea that Margaret's Death Curse was partially a sort of Birth Curse, harnessing power from giving birth to Harry to either A) anchor the curse's effects to her bloodline, or B) fulfill a requirement to make a Starborn, or C) somehow pass on some of her power to Harry, or D) some combination of these things.
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I've often toyed with the idea that Margaret's Death Curse was partially a sort of Birth Curse, harnessing power from giving birth to Harry to either A) anchor the curse's effects to her bloodline, or B) fulfill a requirement to make a Starborn, or C) somehow pass on some of her power to Harry, or D) some combination of these things.
This seems a pretty good idea.
We know Love is a force that can create offspring, and birth is a powerful symbol of that.
We know Love is the White Court's kryptonite.
So if Harry is a product and thus symbol of True Love between Margaret and Malcolm, his birth would be a good weapon to wield against Raith.
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This seems a pretty good idea.
We know Love is a force that can create offspring, and birth is a powerful symbol of that.
We know Love is the White Court's kryptonite.
So if Harry is a product and thus symbol of True Love between Margaret and Malcolm, his birth would be a good weapon to wield against Raith.
It is possible that the Death Curse and proposed Birth Curse (or whatever, I'm just paralleling here) were entirely separate things, too. Harry's birth may have been organized as a ritual, for example.
To really open up a can of worms, recall that Harry was born on Halloween, a day during which states of power are in flux; immortals can die poimanently (sometimes I like to type with a Stooge accent), for example. So it's possible that power was generated and passed on to Harry from his birth. (I've always thought it a bit convenient that Harry was such a slugger in terms of raw ability. Ebenezer's a brawler, and he's got a ton of power, but we don't know what Margaret was capable of, nor where her strengths were; she may have been a Molly or Elaine equivalent (better at delicate control than brute forcing things). So I think it's possible that power was passed on somehow.)
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Remember the image of Thomas, and the mirror? That he was fighting the demon? My guess is that Maggie created a barrier between Raith, and his demon. If you got to see in his mind it would be a mirror where they were fighting to connect but could not.
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Remember the image of Thomas, and the mirror? That he was fighting the demon? My guess is that Maggie created a barrier between Raith, and his demon. If you got to see in his mind it would be a mirror where they were fighting to connect but could not.
I'm gonna have to disagree. Raith can still tap into his demon, it's just that the demon can't tap into the rest of the outside world. So Raith can use his powers, but he can't replenish them, so he's got to be very careful when using what limited reservoir of power he has remaining.
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I'm gonna have to disagree. Raith can still tap into his demon, it's just that the demon can't tap into the rest of the outside world. So Raith can use his powers, but he can't replenish them, so he's got to be very careful when using what limited reservoir of power he has remaining.
He may be able to tap into it's powers but something is keeping it from feeding. I'm thinking it's this barrier.
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Yeah, but my point is the barrier is between the demon and the world, not between the demon and Raith.
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It is possible that the Death Curse and proposed Birth Curse (or whatever, I'm just paralleling here) were entirely separate things, too. Harry's birth may have been organized as a ritual, for example.
To really open up a can of worms, recall that Harry was born on Halloween, a day during which states of power are in flux; immortals can die poimanently (sometimes I like to type with a Stooge accent), for example. So it's possible that power was generated and passed on to Harry from his birth. (I've always thought it a bit convenient that Harry was such a slugger in terms of raw ability. Ebenezer's a brawler, and he's got a ton of power, but we don't know what Margaret was capable of, nor where her strengths were; she may have been a Molly or Elaine equivalent (better at delicate control than brute forcing things). So I think it's possible that power was passed on somehow.)
It is possible; from Margaret's description she never seemed a slouch, among the White Council I would expect her at least in the top 50 famous/infamous/notorious (and probably top 10 outside senior official functions like Senior Council, Warden Captain, ...). Of course this doesn't have to translate directly to power, but it seems unlikely she was one of the weak Wizards.
But Harry's power, by any indication, is truly for the highest ranks - and I would argue his control, while not on Elaine's or Molly's level, has been getting far better through the series. Moving a top-tier wizard into more-or-less-first through a ritual would seem like something you might do if you wanted said Wizard to save reality.
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Remember the image of Thomas, and the mirror? That he was fighting the demon? My guess is that Maggie created a barrier between Raith, and his demon. If you got to see in his mind it would be a mirror where they were fighting to connect but could not.
Na the mirror is an aspect of reality, or between reality I might say. It's one reason why I think Mirror Mirror is called such when he pulls Harry into his reality. It's through a metaphysical mirror. Imo everybody has that mirror, it's very indicative of the gateway that exists inside us that our souls would pass through in certain mythos.
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I'm guessing that she used Thomas to create the binding she used on the King. Certainly Thomas supplied the power to keep it active after her death. Say that he was the vector. She couldn't attack directly so she attacked Raith through his living male heir. Raith may have been aware of this avenue of attack since he always killed his male heirs. If you're enamored of the mirror metaphor, say she attacked Raith's demon through the mirror. As long as that connection to the demon side was alive in Thomas she could bind the demon even if she couldn't kill Raith. The idea is simple and it's probably wrong. But I like it anyway.
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I wonder if Malcolm was a fae halfling who chose to be human. Maybe a son of Lea. Goofy idea, but I throw it out there. It creates a connection between Lea and Margaret and would go a long ways towards explaining Lea's affection for Harry.
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Na the mirror is an aspect of reality, or between reality I might say. It's one reason why I think Mirror Mirror is called such when he pulls Harry into his reality. It's through a metaphysical mirror. Imo everybody has that mirror, it's very indicative of the gateway that exists inside us that our souls would pass through in certain mythos.
The mirror seen in Thomas's soul probably has nothing to do with other realities, because it's in his soul.
And the real reason it's called Mirror Mirror is that's the title of the Star Trek episode that introduced Beard Spock. I'm sure there'll be an in-universe reason for it as well, and it would make sense thematically if mirrors (already established in the series as gateways) are in fact how he's pulled through, but I seriously doubt the image in Thomas's soul has anything to do with it.
I'm guessing that she used Thomas to create the binding she used on the King. Certainly Thomas supplied the power to keep it active after her death. Say that he was the vector. She couldn't attack directly so she attacked Raith through his living male heir. Raith may have been aware of this avenue of attack since he always killed his male heirs. If you're enamored of the mirror metaphor, say she attacked Raith's demon through the mirror. As long as that connection to the demon side was alive in Thomas she could bind the demon even if she couldn't kill Raith. The idea is simple and it's probably wrong. But I like it anyway.
Eh, it's probably just because he doesn't want anyone who can usurp him.
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I wonder if Malcolm was a fae halfling who chose to be human. Maybe a son of Lea. Goofy idea, but I throw it out there. It creates a connection between Lea and Margaret and would go a long ways towards explaining Lea's affection for Harry.
Because Margaret La Fay, famous for traveling the Ways in Faerie for more than 100 years, couldn't have met Lea without the man that she just met introducing them?
And Lea knowing Margaret isn't enough explanation for Lea's affection toward Harry? Considering Lea explicitly references her relationship to Margaret whenever it comes up, and almost never Malcolm?
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The mirror seen in Thomas's soul probably has nothing to do with other realities, because it's in his soul.
And the real reason it's called Mirror Mirror is that's the title of the Star Trek episode that introduced Beard Spock. I'm sure there'll be an in-universe reason for it as well, and it would make sense thematically if mirrors (already established in the series as gateways) are in fact how he's pulled through, but I seriously doubt the image in Thomas's soul has anything to do with it.
Yea no titles in DF have double ontondra meanings for sureski's.
The empty night beyond, just like the apocalyptic reference, none of it will come to fruitation one mere book away or anything. Oh and btw, redue your mythological reading, the gateway in the soul.... cross that with Malcolms 'death is a doorway 2 person wide', cause it's a personal passage lol. But I digress, your probably right simply because that's what you believe.
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And Lea knowing Margaret isn't enough explanation for Lea's affection toward Harry? Considering Lea explicitly references her relationship to Margaret whenever it comes up, and almost never Malcolm?
Of course not. Harry can't have a parent who is just a good man. Never mind that if you add a good man to Margaret le Fay, you get basically Harry's character. ;)
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Yea no titles in DF have double ontondra meanings for sureski's.
The empty night beyond, just like the apocalyptic reference, none of it will come to fruitation one mere book away or anything. Oh and btw, redue your mythological reading, the gateway in the soul....
I know they do. In fact, I explicitly acknowledged as much and said I think it's likely actual mirrors will, in fact, play a part:
The mirror seen in Thomas's soul probably has nothing to do with other realities, because it's in his soul.
And the real reason it's called Mirror Mirror is that's the title of the Star Trek episode that introduced Beard Spock. I'm sure there'll be an in-universe reason for it as well, and it would make sense thematically if mirrors (already established in the series as gateways) are in fact how he's pulled through, but I seriously doubt the image in Thomas's soul has anything to do with it.
cross that with Malcolms 'death is a doorway 2 person wide', cause it's a personal passage lol.
He walked around the grave and put his hand on my shoulder.
"Son. Everyone dies alone. That's what it is. It's a door. It's one
person wide. When you go through it, you do it alone." His fingers
squeezed me tight. "But it doesn't mean you've got to be alone
before you go through the door. And believe me, you aren't alone
on the other side."
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Yea....?
I seriously doubt the image in Thomas's soul has anything to do with it.
The empty night beyond, just like the apocalyptic reference,
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Yea....?
If this is in reference to the soulgaze between Harry and Thomas, the words "empty" and "night" don't appear anywhere in the description of the demon in the mirror, let alone put together as in the White Court's customary curse.
Oddly, perhaps, for a book centered around the White Court, the term "Empty night" only actually appears once in the whole text.
The passage doesn't even describe any sort of sky, let alone one that could be interpreted even loosely as an "empty night."
I looked past the young man into the mirror. There I saw one of
those things that I would want to forget. But thanks to the Sight, I
wouldn't. Ever.
The reflection room in the mirror looked like the one I stood in at
first glance. But looking closer revealed that rather than black and
white marble, the place was made from dark, dried blood and sunbleached
bone. A creature stood there at the mirror, directly in
front of Thomas. It was humanoid, more or less Thomas's size,
and its hide shone with a luminous silver glow. It crouched,
hunched and grotesque, though at the same time there was an
eerie beauty about the thing. Its shining white eyes burned with
silent flame. Its bestial face stared eagerly at Thomas, burning with
what seemed to be unsatiated appetite.
The creature's arm also extended to the mirror, and then with a
shiver I realized that its limb was reaching a good foot past the
mirror's surface. Its gleaming claws were sunk into Thomas's
shaking forearm, and drops of dark blood had run from the
punctures. Thomas's arm, meanwhile, had sunk into the mirror,
and I saw his fingers digging in hard upon the flesh of the
creature's forearm. Locked together, I sensed that the two were
straining against each other. Thomas was trying to pull himself
away from the thing. The creature was trying to drag him into the
mirror, there among the dried blood and dead bones.
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Eh, it's probably just because he doesn't want anyone who can usurp him.
One doesn't preclude the other.Because Margaret La Fay, famous for traveling the Ways in Faerie for more than 100 years, couldn't have met Lea without the man that she just met introducing them?
And Lea knowing Margaret isn't enough explanation for Lea's affection toward Harry? Considering Lea explicitly references her relationship to Margaret whenever it comes up, and almost never Malcolm?
I don't offer this very seriously, it's just idle musing. But I haven't been left with the idea that the fae are into the concept of best friends, nor are they givers of information without a quid pro quo.
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One doesn't preclude the other.I don't offer this very seriously, it's just idle musing. But I haven't been left with the idea that the fae are into the concept of best friends, nor are they givers of information without a quid pro quo.
They may not be, but I don't see a reason that Malcolm would be needed to justify Lea's involvement when we know that Margaret spent a century or so interacting directly with fae.
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They may not be, but I don't see a reason that Malcolm would be needed to justify Lea's involvement when we know that Margaret spent a century or so interacting directly with fae.
Time only mattered to Maggie. Lea and Mab are into the long game. If Maggie was able to avoid the clutches of the White King, one can assume that she could avoid becoming obligated to the Fae Court. Then the line of reasoning would be this, Lea or Mab wanted something that only Maggie could give them. A child. Malcolm was to be the father. Because he brought something to the table that the Queens needed. Whatever quality that might be.
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Time only mattered to Maggie. Lea and Mab are into the long game. If Maggie was able to avoid the clutches of the White King, one can assume that she could avoid becoming obligated to the Fae Court. Then the line of reasoning would be this, Lea or Mab wanted something that only Maggie could give them. A child. Malcolm was to be the father. Because he brought something to the table that the Queens needed. Whatever quality that might be.
She did not avoid the clutches of the White King. She had his kid. She escaped, eventually, but only after she demonstrated the massive stupidity necessary to screw the White King on purpose, and the massive arrogance to believe she could get away with it.
We can't assume she avoided becoming obligated to the Fae Court. In fact, I think the opposite is practically a given. You don't spend 100 years traipsing around Faerie -- not when you're as arrogant and shortsighted as we know that Maggie Sr. was -- without picking up obligations and getting mixed up with the Fae. I mean, her nickname practically means, "I got mixed up with the fae."
Seriously. She made mistakes. She made a ton of mistakes. She effed up so bad that she ended up running from damn near everybody she knew, and then got her ass murdered. We have no reason to believe she's some master chessmaster who went to her death saying, "All according to plan."
She was a teenager going, "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO DAD!" until she had to run for her life.
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She did get away. And she neutered the colossal p***k to boot. And the chain ended with him being a sock puppet for Lara. Karma is a b****h. I call that a win. However other than that you may be right. We won't know unless JB decides to share. I'm just trying to find Malcolm's place in this. I'm not a real big believer in happy chance.
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She did get away.
And where is she now? Right, dead. After spending years helping the evil, sadistic, daughter-raping, son-murdering bastard doing God only knows what because she thought she knew better than her dad.
Oh, and at some point during this relationship she was working with, or trying to work with, one of the worst, most sadistic and evil Red Court vampires that we know of, who would later try to wipe her entire remaining family off the face of the planet.
Yup, the very picture of foresight, she was.
And she neutered the colossal p***k to boot.
As he murdered her. If anything, that's at tie.
And the chain ended with him being a sock puppet for Lara. Karma is a b****h.
Not something Maggie planned or really had any hand in, being 25-ish years dead at the time.
I call that a win.
One that cost her life, and didn't become a win until Lord Raith very nearly murdered both her sons. If it's anyone's win, it's Harry's.
Her death curse worked out to a win "eventually" (and only if you ignore that now Lara has the potential to be much worse, since she's competent); that doesn't mean she gets credit for planning the whole thing out. If anything, it was a desperate, last-breath retaliation.
However other than that you may be right. We won't know unless JB decides to share. I'm just trying to find Malcolm's place in this. I'm not a real big believer in happy chance.
He has a place in this.
He's a good, mortal man that redeemed Maggie with his love.
He doesn't need to be supernaturally connected. He doesn't need to be personally powerful. He doesn't need to be part of someone else's grand plan.
Jim reminds us -- constantly -- that mortal free will and just Doing The Right Thing can and does make a real difference. That is what Malcolm is. That's his place in this. He's proof that the biggest difference doesn't have to be who can sling the most fire around, who has the most faeries on her Rolodex, or who can plan 27 steps ahead.
It can be just anyone, who decides to be a good person and do the right thing.
It's the reason Aragorn and Gandalf aren't the heroes of Lord of the Rings -- it's Frodo and Sam.
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EDITED BY paranetonline
If this is in reference to the soulgaze between Harry and Thomas, the words "empty" and "night" don't appear anywhere in the description of the demon in the mirror, let alone put together as in the White Court's customary curse.
Oddly, perhaps, for a book centered around the White Court, the term "Empty night" only actually appears once in the whole text.
The passage doesn't even describe any sort of sky, let alone one that could be interpreted even loosely as an "empty night."
Oh i'm sorry your so fixated on that word, I made a connective error because I see something you do not. (also I know precisely wtf empty night refers to, it's a vampire curse in ann rice's novels used to describe a night without prey, a night without mortal kind, thanks though)
...but looking closer revealed that rather than black and white marble, the place was made from dark, dried blood and sun-bleached bones
seems of the same quality as
...beyond the wall the land was mad of dust and mud and loose shale... ...those layers and mountains of shale? They weren't shale. They were bones.
Which also has as a feature
Though the land was somehow lit, the sky was as black as Cat Sith's conscience, without a single star or speck of light to be seen.
It seems kosher to me despite the logical leap from deduction ya'll just haven't done yet.
But I disgress, Since Mirror Harry is calling others from the outside, basically willing them into being from another reality, the passage itself is of course from the outside, if the mechanism is the mirror itself, then it's simple enough to deduce.
==================================================================
The brown text is where you're being antagonistic. Here's what you could have said that would have been less controversial.
My bad, I made a connective error. When reading this <first quote> I made a parallel with this <second quote> which associates with Empty Night with <third quote>. I think there could be a connection between them.
The purple text is where you're presenting facts from another series or your own speculation as facts in the Dresdenverse. Either might be accurate in the long run, but in the meantime, you're not arguing in good faith. Building upon theories is fine and good, but don't be dismissive of others if they don't recognize your theory as fact until it's proven true.
In short, stop being antagonistic. This is the last warning.
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Wizard Sibelis, how many times do we need to remind you of the policies?
Be civil.
Blaze, as Mod
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And where is she now? Right, dead. After spending years helping the evil, sadistic, daughter-raping, son-murdering bastard doing God only knows what because she thought she knew better than her dad.
Oh, and at some point during this relationship she was working with, or trying to work with, one of the worst, most sadistic and evil Red Court vampires that we know of, who would later try to wipe her entire remaining family off the face of the planet.
Yup, the very picture of foresight, she was.
There wouldn't be much of a redemption arc if she hadn't fouled up first. And obviously you have access to material which I haven't read.As he murdered her. If anything, that's at tie.
Sometimes winning is just not losing. So if she had two years with a man that loved her, that was two years she wouldn't have had otherwise. As to if she had planned for Raith to become Lara's sock puppet, it misses the point. She couldn't know how it would turn out, but had she failed as Eb had, Lara would have never had the chance. And as long as Thomas could stay alive Raith was prime for a back stab from someone. In a sense, if indeed JB is thinking this way, it was only a matter of time. Since Maggie was a mortal she was born to die, Raith could have lived forever. Who lost more? YMMV.Jim reminds us -- constantly -- that mortal free will and just Doing The Right Thing can and does make a real difference.
Well when JB actually has Harry doing that I might buy in. Up to Skin Game Harry has treated people poorly. He basically threw Molly under the bus in Changes. And JB then wrote Ghost Story just to point it out so we didn't miss it. Then he reinforced it by having Mab point it out to Harry in Cold Days. In a number of ways Harry is much the same way as you have described his mother. He treats with the fae, has Lara Raith as an ally(evil vampire). Sponsored Marcone as a free holding Lord(murdering crime lord). And made a deal with a so called evil fairy when his daughter was at risk.
Malcolm may well be just an average Joe. I kind of hope so. We'll see.
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In The Warrior Uriel lays it all out in front of Harry how his doing good helps people in ways he can't see. And since Harry can't see them, obviously we don't either.
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A wizard (Margaret) cursed Lord Raith. Could another wizard remove it?
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There wouldn't be much of a redemption arc if she hadn't fouled up first. And obviously you have access to material which I haven't read.
All that's from Blood Rites and Changes -- she had Thomas and left when he was 5, so she was with Lord Raith for that long at the very least, and Ebenezer describes a meeting where she was trying to get Ebenezer in on a scheme she was concocting that involved both Lord Raith and Arianna.
And Ebenezer is pretty clear that she struck out on her own at least partly out of rebellion against him, her father, personally.
Sometimes winning is just not losing. So if she had two years with a man that loved her, that was two years she wouldn't have had otherwise. As to if she had planned for Raith to become Lara's sock puppet, it misses the point. She couldn't know how it would turn out, but had she failed as Eb had, Lara would have never had the chance. And as long as Thomas could stay alive Raith was prime for a back stab from someone. In a sense, if indeed JB is thinking this way, it was only a matter of time. Since Maggie was a mortal she was born to die, Raith could have lived forever. Who lost more? YMMV.
I'm not denying that the Death Curse she placed on him was clever -- it was, as defiant last-attacks go, pretty brilliant, and was probably only possible because of their, ahem, intimate familiarity with one another.
I'm just saying it was probably more of a final "F*CK YOU" than it was looking into his future defeat. But that's my read on Maggie -- I get the sense that she wasn't really that smart about things until maybe right toward the end. Clever, sure. Powerful, sure. But she made a lot of really, really bad decisions that she should have known better about.
Well when JB actually has Harry doing that I might buy in. Up to Skin Game Harry has treated people poorly. He basically threw Molly under the bus in Changes. And JB then wrote Ghost Story just to point it out so we didn't miss it. Then he reinforced it by having Mab point it out to Harry in Cold Days. In a number of ways Harry is much the same way as you have described his mother. He treats with the fae, has Lara Raith as an ally(evil vampire). Sponsored Marcone as a free holding Lord(murdering crime lord). And made a deal with a so called evil fairy when his daughter was at risk.
Right, and as you say, he learned a hard lesson about that. The difference is, he ... well, I guess he didn't learn it before he died, per se, but he got sent back for another go anyway.
The way I look at the difference between Harry and Maggie Sr. is, when Harry does those things, we see his inner monologue about how it's a tough choice he has to make, and it's the lesser of a variable number of evils. The sense I've gotten about Maggie Sr. is more that she went into things with the attitude of, "I can handle this, because I'm just that smart and awesome." Now, granted, we haven't seen into her head and only have second-hand accounts, but like I said, that's the sense I've gotten from the evidence we've seen.
And as Peregrine pointed out, Uriel makes it explicit.
And it's not just about what Harry, personally, does. Look at the folks he calls "good people," like the Carpenters and Murphy. How many times has Harry survived because one of his mortal friends stood up and decided to Do The Right Thing?
How many lives were saved just from Butters squaring off with Cassius?
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A wizard (Margaret) cursed Lord Raith. Could another wizard remove it?
Possibly. It'd probably be a question of power and scale -- a regular Death Curse is essentially a human sacrifice ritual with the caster as the sacrifice, so undoing it might likewise require a human sacrifice. Now, I don't exactly expect Lord Raith to be squeamish about that, but this one is also tied into a birth and two lives. I have no idea how that would affect the mechanics of it.
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The question of if it was her death curse that crippled Raith will have to stand until JB decides to lay it out. She could have set the binding before she left and simply used her death curse to trigger it. I don't know.
As to how smart she was, she evidently had some respect from her peers, including her father. She created Harry's ruby with a map of the ways. And her nickname might indicate grudging respect in how she dealt with the fae. JB has said a lot about her, but not in a way that makes her a fully composed character.
How many lives were saved just from Butters squaring off with Cassius?
Frodo be damned, Harry is the hero, so of course it would be written that way. ;)
More seriously, I understand the point you are making. I just wish JB would get Harry to adulthood and quit fooling about. He acts like some 10 year olds at times. And you should know, the Butter's plot line has stretched my credulity to my elastic limit.(I'm aware that this makes me an army of 1 :()
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As forumghost points out here (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,51679.msg2312575.html#msg2312575), Jim has laid it out. There's really no remaining ambiguity there as to what Maggie Sr. did to Lord Raith.
She was dumb enough to think sleeping with Lord Raith was a good idea, and dumb enough to think any kind of alliance with the Red Court was a good idea. Ebenezer had respect for her judgment ... until he realized what she was doing, and then didn't.
When I say she wasn't smart, I'm not talking about her ability with magic. It seems fairly evident that, as far as her ability with the art goes, she was up there with the best of them. I'm talking about her judgment and foresight, which seems to have been severely lacking.
And her nickname might indicate that -- but to my knowledge, we haven't seen anyone, including Jim, who's said so. Jim's basically said you get that kind of nickname because you deal with the Fae, because you're crazy, or because you're crazy enough to deal with the Fae. His description didn't have much to do with "respect" unless I'm forgetting something.
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As forumghost points out here (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,51679.msg2312575.html#msg2312575), Jim has laid it out. There's really no remaining ambiguity there as to what Maggie Sr. did to Lord Raith.
She was dumb enough to think sleeping with Lord Raith was a good idea, and dumb enough to think any kind of alliance with the Red Court was a good idea. Ebenezer had respect for her judgment ... until he realized what she was doing, and then didn't.
When I say she wasn't smart, I'm not talking about her ability with magic. It seems fairly evident that, as far as her ability with the art goes, she was up there with the best of them. I'm talking about her judgment and foresight, which seems to have been severely lacking.
And her nickname might indicate that -- but to my knowledge, we haven't seen anyone, including Jim, who's said so. Jim's basically said you get that kind of nickname because you deal with the Fae, because you're crazy, or because you're crazy enough to deal with the Fae. His description didn't have much to do with "respect" unless I'm forgetting something.
Either that or she's actually ahead of the White Council, and could see what was happening long before it's been realized. She may have seen the threat decades ago that is just now being realized, the Black Council. She could have seen it unfolding from members of the White Council, and couldn't trust them (Except her father who she wanted to bring on board), members of the White Court (Raith), and the Red Court could have seen it unfolding within their own power structures. We know at least one within the White Court called Cowl "master", at it was at a Red Court ceremony that Cowl presented at least one gift that was Nemfected.
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Either that or she's actually ahead of the White Council, and could see what was happening long before it's been realized. She may have seen the threat decades ago that is just now being realized, the Black Council. She could have seen it unfolding from members of the White Council, and couldn't trust them (Except her father who she wanted to bring on board), members of the White Court (Raith), and the Red Court could have seen it unfolding within their own power structures. We know at least one within the White Court called Cowl "master", at it was at a Red Court ceremony that Cowl presented at least one gift that was Nemfected.
Most of what we've seen and heard of her doing points more to her being part of the Black Council, not working against it.
Look at her allies: Lord Raith (powered by an Outsider, which we know the Black Council uses) and Red Court (again, uses Outsiders in direct cooperation with Black Council operatives).
She thought the White Council was too restrictive, a viewpoint that Cowl (Black Council operative) shares.
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As forumghost points out here (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,51679.msg2312575.html#msg2312575), Jim has laid it out. There's really no remaining ambiguity there as to what Maggie Sr. did to Lord Raith.
She was dumb enough to think sleeping with Lord Raith was a good idea, and dumb enough to think any kind of alliance with the Red Court was a good idea. Ebenezer had respect for her judgment ... until he realized what she was doing, and then didn't.
When I say she wasn't smart, I'm not talking about her ability with magic. It seems fairly evident that, as far as her ability with the art goes, she was up there with the best of them. I'm talking about her judgment and foresight, which seems to have been severely lacking.
And her nickname might indicate that -- but to my knowledge, we haven't seen anyone, including Jim, who's said so. Jim's basically said you get that kind of nickname because you deal with the Fae, because you're crazy, or because you're crazy enough to deal with the Fae. His description didn't have much to do with "respect" unless I'm forgetting something.
It's pretty much laid out in Dead Beat with very little wiggle room. And I don't disagree with you. But look very closely at Harry and realize that the branch doesn't fall far from the tree. Harry's the Winter Knight. His God Mother is Lea. He's an ally with Lara Raith and Marcone. And He's a member of the Grey Council and is enemies with the current Merlin.
I wish JB would write short story about her to flesh out the character. It might be more interesting then three about Big Foot. Or not.
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It's pretty much laid out in Dead Beat with very little wiggle room. And I don't disagree with you. But look very closely at Harry and realize that the branch doesn't fall far from the tree. Harry's the Winter Knight. His God Mother is Lea. He's an ally with Lara Raith and Marcone. And He's a member of the Grey Council and is enemies with the current Merlin.
I wish JB would write short story about her to flesh out the character. It might be more interesting then three about Big Foot. Or not.
The main difference is that Harry wants nothing to do with any of those 'Allies' of his and would rather they all die in a fire. He just keeps getting forced into cooperation by circumstances.
Maggie Sr on the other hand is (based on everyone that's spoken of her) a crusading rebel that knew better then everyone else and got in bed with the monsters willingly (and in some cases literally) because she was smarter and knew better and could handle it, unlike those jerks in the White Council that were too narrow minded to see what had to be done.
By all reports she was very much like Harry, true- if Harry never had the early wake-up calls about how ignorant and out-of-his-depth he really was.
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I just get a twitch in the back of my neck when I consider Maggie and Malcolm. We'll see, or rather you might. I think I'll have crossed over before JB gets to the point.
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The main difference is that Harry wants nothing to do with any of those 'Allies' of his and would rather they all die in a fire. He just keeps getting forced into cooperation by circumstances.
Maggie Sr on the other hand is (based on everyone that's spoken of her) a crusading rebel that knew better then everyone else and got in bed with the monsters willingly (and in some cases literally) because she was smarter and knew better and could handle it, unlike those jerks in the White Council that were too narrow minded to see what had to be done.
By all reports she was very much like Harry, true- if Harry never had the early wake-up calls about how ignorant and out-of-his-depth he really was.
I was gonna respond, but this is basically everything I was going to say anyway.
As to Maggie Sr. and Malcolm, another point is the theme that she found redemption in someone who was in a lot of ways the exact opposite of everyone she'd tried to work with before. She was probably someone who thought that power and connections and magic were everything -- meeting someone like Malcolm, who had none of that but was still a good man, is what she'd need to see real redemption.
Otherwise, she's just a pawn of the higher powers bouncing her around.
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I was gonna respond, but this is basically everything I was going to say anyway.
As to Maggie Sr. and Malcolm, another point is the theme that she found redemption in someone who was in a lot of ways the exact opposite of everyone she'd tried to work with before. She was probably someone who thought that power and connections and magic were everything -- meeting someone like Malcolm, who had none of that but was still a good man, is what she'd need to see real redemption.
Otherwise, she's just a pawn of the higher powers bouncing her around.
Exactly why I hate all the "Malcolm was a Wizard/Scion/KOTC" Theories. They completely undermine the message of how just being a good person can make a difference, because it's not enough to be Good, you have to be Special.
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Exactly why I hate all the "Malcolm was a Wizard/Scion/KOTC" Theories. They completely undermine the message of how just being a good person can make a difference, because it's not enough to be Good, you have to be Special.
Perhaps JB shouldn't have have given a dead man speaking lines. In my book that is over and above "normal". Had he treated him as a normal dead parent we wouldn't be having this conversation. And we had at least two good people who weren't special, Butters and Murphy. JB evidently hated it so much he turned Butters into a KOTC. I shudder for Murphy. Good people(especially women) end up dead in Harry's world.
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Perhaps JB shouldn't have have given a dead man speaking lines. In my book that is over and above "normal". Had he treated him as a normal dead parent we wouldn't be having this conversation.
So him being recruited as a ghost the same as say, Carmichael or Papa Murphy was, means that he had to be magical in life???
And we had at least two good people who weren't special, Butters and Murphy. JB evidently hated it so much he turned Butters into a KOTC.
IMO That had less to do with him hating 'Normals' and more to do with him loving Butters a little too much.
I shudder for Murphy. Good people(especially women) end up dead in Harry's world.
I mean the real problem as far as Murphy's mortality is probably the fact that she's just gotten into a relationship with Harry, which... historically has not gone well.
Elaine: Mindraped into servitude by her Adopted Father.
Susan: Infected by the Red Court and then used as a living Sacrifice.
Luccio: Entire relationship was a lie caused by severe mental manipulation.
So far we're 0/3 on Harry having a healthy romantic relationship, and I doubt that's gonna change, it's too good a source of Drama for Jim to let drop with that many books left.
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So him being recruited as a ghost the same as say, Carmichael or Papa Murphy was, means that he had to be magical in life???
Well, we don't even know that he was recruited. But yeah, I was going to make the same argument. Also Sir Stuart, who is more than just a regular ghost.
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Special need not be Magical. And Murphy/Carmichael does not equal ghost. Sarrisa was mortal in all respects other than an inferred long life span. Charity gave up her talent and chose to be mortal. And Malcolm fathered a star born(whatever that is meant to be). And got hired by someone after he died.
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Ok. So use the word special instead of magical. Murphy and Carmichael are still active and doing stuff on the other side of the veil. Were they "special" in any way before they died and were recruited?
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Elaine: Mindraped into servitude by her Adopted Father.
Nothing to do with Harry, he just happened to be there... That's like saying the brother of a girl being assaulted by her father is somehow responsible.
Susan: Infected by the Red Court and then used as a living Sacrifice.
Yes he was indirectly responsible because she was associated with him.
Luccio: Entire relationship was a lie caused by severe mental manipulation.
Was it a lie? I got the impression they realized they had been influenced at the beginning but not that it was a lie. I thought that the feelings were genuine but Luccio realized that she had more important things to do on the Council which her being involved with Harry was a distraction from her duty. Perhaps I'm remembering wrong...
I'd say it's more like one relationship ended badly because of who Harry is, with Susan. Elaine and Harry's ended because of Justin and because Harry thought her dead. Luccio's was more like two people infatuated with each other and realizing they had more important things to do, not a horrible way to end things considering they are on friendly terms.
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Keeping in mind of course that this is not the real world, but a series of books. So yeah, ultimately everything bad that happens to Harry's love interests is because they're Harry's love interest.
As for Luccio, my take was that while there might have been some genuine affection there, Peabody's work kept her at it. It was definitely not what Harry thought it was when he realized he had lost his protection against White Court vampires from Susan, that his feelings were not reciprocated.
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Ok. So use the word special instead of magical. Murphy and Carmichael are still active and doing stuff on the other side of the veil. Were they "special" in any way before they died and were recruited?
We'll both know when JB tells us. As a working hypothesis, yes, in the same sense that a man who volunteers for combat is special or the guy who wades into a raging river to save someone is. Look at the context.They completely undermine the message of how just being a good person can make a difference, because it's not enough to be Good, you have to be Special.
Truly good people are always special. There aren't many of them. Not in books and not in real life. Jim has written a few.
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We'll both know when JB tells us. As a working hypothesis, yes, in the same sense that a man who volunteers for combat is special or the guy who wades into a raging river to save someone is. Look at the context.
The context of this conversations seems to be that Malcolm was in some way more than just human. Not simply special because he's a good person, but that he was a "Wizard/Scion/KotC" since that was what he said to start.
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I originally suggested, that he was a halfling that chose humanity. And that hypothesis was what I supposed forumghost was referring to.
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I originally suggested, that he was a halfling that chose humanity. And that hypothesis was what I supposed forumghost was referring to.
That's more-or-less it, yeah. "Malcolm has to be something more then Human" theories pop up semi-regularly around here, (usually a KOTC) and it just irritates me more then reasonable because I feel that him being unremarkable (in magical terms), but simply a good man, is an important part of exactly why he was important.
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We'll both know when JB tells us.
He more or less has -- nothing in any of the books has thus far suggested that they had anything magical or special about them. Everybody, in every reference to them, treats them as pure mortals. That's what they are established as in the books.
It would take something from JB to tell us otherwise. We don't need Word of Jim to "confirm" something that the books never had as a question in the first place.
It's like saying we won't know for certain if Billy is really a werewolf until Jim says so.
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Assuming that the Murphy and Carmichael, that are hanging out if Chicago between, are the same two from the real world, they have indeed turned out to be special. They got positions at Ark Angel PD in Chicago between.
I don't think that Malcolm has to be special. But it isn't that he couldn't be."She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him.
Eb describes him as exceptional, hell near angelic, unless you read that differently than I do. But putting that aside.
I have issues here all around this area. Why did Maggie leave Thomas behind? If she was hiding from Eb how did he learn how she died? And why does he know anything about Malcolm if they hadn't been in close contact? And why didn't he protect Harry if Malcolm found him to tell him? It was his grandson. Justine DuMorne didn't seem to have a problem doing so. I mean, something smells.
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Assuming that the Murphy and Carmichael, that are hanging out if Chicago between, are the same two from the real world, they have indeed turned out to be special. They got positions at Ark Angel PD in Chicago between.
Probably because of the nature of their deaths, more than that they'd been empowered in some way in life.
I don't think that Malcolm has to be special. But it isn't that he couldn't be. Eb describes him as exceptional, hell near angelic, unless you read that differently than I do. But putting that aside.
Let's define terms -- yes, he was "special" in that he was an exceptionally good man. We all agree on at least that. What we're saying is he wasn't supernatural.
I have issues here all around this area. Why did Maggie leave Thomas behind?
WOJ addresses that specifically -- she left him behind because she saw him as a baby shark, able to take care of himself.
If she was hiding from Eb how did he learn how she died?
Ebenezer has contacts; and he apparently met Malcolm. I get the feeling that, toward the end, she wasn't so much "successfully hiding" from Ebenezer as Ebenezer was, "not able to find her, guys, seriously," just like Ramirez totally couldn't find Molly after Changes.
And why does he know anything about Malcolm if they hadn't been in close contact?
This is an unknown, but not implausible. There are a few possibilities that spring to mind:
1. Ebenezer found out about him after Maggie left Lord Raith. Maybe he was trying to reconnect to her and bring her into his protection. In any case, he sees Malcolm and decides to check out the guy who's dating/married his little girl and, perhaps after getting a Soulgaze going, he decides to leave them be.
2. After Maggie Sr. dies, Ebenezer comes to Malcolm, possibly considering taking Harry himself. Same as above, possible soulgaze, and Ebenezer decides that leaving the baby with Malcolm -- and with no connection to himself -- is safer. This is most consistent with what he later says, in Changes, about why he didn't tell Harry.
3. He scried on them from a distance and used his connections to dig up whatever he could on Malcolm.
Now, that he says a soul "like few I've ever seen" leads me to believe he soulgazed him, so I'd bet on #2. But the overall gist is, "He's a hugely powerful wizard, there's not a lot he can't find out about an unpowered mortal if he wants to know something."
And why didn't he protect Harry if Malcolm found him to tell him? It was his grandson. Justine DuMorne didn't seem to have a problem doing so. I mean, something smells.
Who said Malcolm found Ebenezer? In Changes, Ebenezer said he didn't tell Harry because he didn't want Harry attracting Ebenezer's enemies, so his thinking is probably similar here. I would very much believe that any visit Ebenezer made to Malcolm was initiated, incognito, by Ebenezer.
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Superman wasn't Superman until he got here. Peter Parker wasn't Spiderman until he got bit. But as I said we'll set that aside as it really can't be settled. But you are probably right.
Really good men are as rare as Diogenes' thought honest men were, but I'm a cynic.
As to Thomas being a baby shark, I must tell you that is perhaps the lamest response from JB I've ever seen. Most mothers would die before they would abandon their child. Given that had she took him he would have never been a vampire I can see why people seem to think she was a sociopath.
If Ebeneezer was watching from afar, why let Harry go to an orphanage? Once there how did Justine Dumorne get hold of Harry? I don't expect answers, but there are obviously pieces to the puzzle we haven't seen.
Ran across this in WOJ (http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-family/).
Q: When will we learn more about Maggie?
A: It will be little bits at a time, like we’re learning now. But eventually we will find out that what we’ve been told so far is only accurate from a certain point of view. It will all have a different meaning once we’ve learned the whole story.
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As to Thomas being a baby shark, I must tell you that is perhaps the lamest response from JB I've ever seen. Most mothers would die before they would abandon their child. Given that had she took him he would have never been a vampire I can see why people seem to think she was a sociopath.
And most mothers aren't fleeing for their lives from someone who could kill them with a single touch. And most mothers don't have children who are literally sharing their body with a demon (though I've met some toddlers who you could make an argument about...).
Suffice to say, Maggie Sr.'s parental situation was a little different than the norm.
Edit: Put it this way:
If you run from the White King, he's probably going to hunt you down and kill you.
If you steal the White King's son, he's definitely going to hunt you down and kill you, and will probably kill the kid, too.
If Ebeneezer was watching from afar, why let Harry go to an orphanage? Once there how did Justine Dumorne get hold of Harry? I don't expect answers, but there are obviously pieces to the puzzle we haven't seen.
It's extremely unlikely that Ebenezer would be watching them constantly. He has other things that he does, after all. If he kept an eye on them at all after meeting Malcolm -- he could have decided that even looking in on them was risky, if anyone found out he was doing so.
Ran across this in WOJ (http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-family/).
Yes. What we've learned about Maggie might be a Jedi Truth. That question doesn't say anything about Malcolm.
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On the issue of Malcolm I yield to you, barring new information Say hopefully a new book. And you give Eb a lot of room here
But the overall gist is, "He's a hugely powerful wizard, there's not a lot he can't find out about an unpowered mortal if he wants to know something."
Considering his magical assets and potential money assets, given his age, I agree. Your response could be correct, I have no facts to dispute it. But I'mma gonna stick with the unpleasant smell view. My father called me bull headed. :)
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I often wonder if it wasn't Lasciel's first contact that allowed Malcolm to reach out to Harry, but something else.
I'm listening to Dead Beat now, and I remember hearing a few things in Blood Rites that made me think it's possible that the common assumption about the reason Malcolm was allowed to speak to Harry was in response to something else. I won't state anything until I reach that point in the story again, I'm just leaving this post as a mental bookmark for myself.
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I always figured the fact that the veil between the living and the dead was all kinds of buggered up during Dead Beat probably had at least something to do with it.