The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach

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raidem:
This is what set the discussion up.  Multiple arguments ensued.


--- Quote ---[4:06 AM] Godslayer: So has anyone put forth the theory that the attack on Demonreach in Cold Days was an attempt at a superpowered Darkhallow rite?
[4:16 AM] khadgar567: i can go with that
[4:16 AM] Godslayer: Of course, that begs the question: Who was looking to cash in on it?
[4:16 AM] khadgar567: as you are sacrifacing bunch of outsiders to empower your self instead of ghosts
[4:17 AM] Godslayer: Yeah, I imagine you'd be the most powerful being on earth if you pulled it off
[4:18 AM] khadgar567: lets not forget you are drawing outsiders across time to fuel the ritual not just presint time
[[4:19 AM] Godslayer: one thing I'm amazed about Harry not bringing up is: where the hell did all of the outsiders in Cold Days come from?
[4:20 AM] khadgar567: so there is third party going on in the cold days
[4:21 AM] khadgar567: and i bet they attack in peace talks to as nearly all big wigs in setting are in the same location same time
[4:22 AM] khadgar567: its kinda begs to be  exploited by some one
[4:23 AM] khadgar567: fall out would be epic as rapid change of managment and desire to get blind revenge will open huge oppurtunity to pop a dark hallow cap on whole cast
[9:33 AM] -EG-: The Darkhallow took a lot of prep time and very specific acts of Necromancy to prepare the intended recipient to be around that vortex. And the energy that was going to 'destroy' DR and set everything loose was set to hit on November First, not Halloween. The opportunity to take in that kind of power would have no longer applied.(edited)
[9:39 AM] Vicissitude: Hmm, that's a bummer.
[9:39 AM] Vicissitude: Though it is a work of fiction. I'll bet Jim could have found a loophole :v
[9:42 AM] -EG-: Jim is certainly creative, but his rules and world tend to stand up to itself well. Which is definitely one of the reasons why it's a popular series. Harry gets a creative loophole because he's the main character. And even those are within parameters.
[9:44 AM] raidem: When it comes to the exact date it really doesn't depend on Earth's calendar
[9:44 AM] raidem: It depends on the Cosmic Halloween
[9:46 AM] raidem: I mean we have an inexact calendar as it is, with a leap year added to the calendar to adjust it to be more accurate reflection of Earth's orbit around the sun
[9:46 AM] raidem: So, I'd say it was still Cosmic Halloween
[9:47 AM] Vicissitude: Yeah, like the bloodline curse wasn't literally at midnight on that night
[9:47 AM] raidem: the conjunction was still active
[9:47 AM] raidem: And Maeve and Lily DID die
[9:47 AM] Boustrophedonic: Harry gets some loopholes and wiggle room because he's literally a cosmic monkey wrench in the war against the outsiders
[9:47 AM] raidem: so that proves Cosmic Halloween was enforced
--- End quote ---

raidem:
You don't have to install it.  You can just see it through your browser.  You will need to establish a email and password associated with it I think.  You can I think use a guest account too.

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Kindler:
Ah, okay, that context explains the hair-splitting then. Some take quantum foam-sized items of minutiae as a hill to die on (not saying your'e one of them, Raidem), so I had kind of figured it was something like that. I retract my previous sarcasm.

Quantus:
OK, this is one of those topics that long warped my brain but eventually I came to an explanation I liked, though it does require an unproven assumption of the Nature of Demonreach.  But without it, there does not appear to be any need to involve Chronomancy at all, which ultimately is what foiled the plan by forewarning Harry&co.

I think Maeve's plan was to trigger the Banefire on Nov. 1st, but the Trans-Dimensional Nature of Demonreach required her to "toss the rock" from Oct.31. 

We know Demonreach is a prison in Time as well as Space, so Here's the Assumption:  Demonreach traps the inmates in a Perpetual Halloween.  They are in "Stasis" and vulnerable, with the Banefire hanging over them (like a more literal Doom of Damocles, ironically), which is what it would take for the Banefire to actually kill them as Vadderung initially described.  So if Maeve wanted to actually launch an attack on the Well itself (the magical construct) she could only reach it in Space&Time from the Island on the actual Day.  However, then she is setting off a Nuke that she happens to be standing on, which is suicidal for all involved.  This is why a Trans-temporal attack was required, it acted as a delay.  But had she simply lobbed the attack from November 1st it could have hit the island but would not have "reached" the Well itself.


Support:

-Per Bob/Alfred the Well is a Prison in Time as well as Space, and maybe even higher dimensions (ie parallel worlds?)

-The British Inmate raves about the inmates being in "Stasis" and how the presence of the Warden "Buggers that up entirely."  This could be taken to mean that the inmates only experience the passage of time in the direct presence of the Warden.  Functionally it would make sense for the Well to go out of it's way to facilitate interaction since it's the Warden's responsibility to Determine if they should ever be Released. 

-Vadderung indicated that the Inmates would not survive the Banefire.  But Maeve (and Harry) were talking like they assumed the inmate's would survive.

-The Chronomantic nature of the attack itself was a huge tactical liability without any other (obvious) benefit.



Counter-argument:  The main counter to this idea is that holding the inmates in perpetual Halloween could be MORE dangerous rather than less.  For the same reason that some Immortals go out and Play on Halloween while others hide, they are more vulnerable on Halloween but it is also the only day they are capable of Change enough to gain new Power.  This is not so much an argument for why it would not work as it is one side of in-world the Risk Assessment that the Well's designer(s) likely had. 

raidem:
I'm thinking on this...
I can post more of the discussion too.
(click to show/hide)
--- Quote ---[9:47 AM] Boustrophedonic: Same with Elaine
[9:48 AM] raidem: So -eg- was incorrect
[9:48 AM] raidem: remember important to be 'accurate'  with your "that kind of power would have no longer applied."(edited)
[9:50 AM] -EG-: No one said the conjunction wasn't still active. The power Maeve and Lily were building up was slated to hit on November First. Because if they were going to hit the island on the actual Halloween they would risk the Banefire permanently killing everything, or many things, in the Well. But if done on the next day, then most of that stuff can get through unscathed...or at least return.
[9:50 AM] raidem: I'd suggest that the Outsider's present at the assault of Demonreach would be in an ideal place to assume the newly freed mantles in the chance they were freed by Demonreach's bane fire
[9:52 AM] Vicissitude: On the other hand, there's a LOT of power locked up in Demonreach. It's possible that whoever absorbed them could survive the banefire
[9:54 AM] -EG-: Or die trying. I don't believe any mortal could absorb all that power without destroying themselves. And mantle holders, while able to add bits here and there, are also subject to 'limits' on how much power they can add. Can't add and overflow the cup basically.
[9:56 AM] raidem: It still doesn't matter about November 1st if it still is part of Cosmic Halloween. And we don't know precisely when it was meant to hit. And I mean precisely.(edited)
[9:59 AM] raidem: If Demonreach was hit on actual Cosmic Halloween, then the mantles would live, the entities wielding them would die.  The banefire would do something we don't know, perhaps change some of the mantles into background radiation.(edited)
[10:00 AM] -EG-: Kill them.
[10:00 AM] -EG-: Because that's what Vadderung says it would do. What it was designed to do.
[10:00 AM] raidem: Duh.  Which is what I said.  I'm talking about the mantles.
[10:01 AM] raidem: They just don't die. They change forms, or pass to another.(edited)
[10:02 AM] -EG-: Except there is even less reason to assume everything, or even anything down there holds a mantle.
[10:02 AM] raidem: Jim has a liberal definition of mantles.  Essentially he has said changelings get their mantles for free. So, he has a generic case of mantles and a more precise one too.  Vadderung has said, masks, mantles...implying they are same thing.(edited)
[10:05 AM] -EG-: Yeah. And only one of those matter for the purposes of power transferal. The precise one. Not the liberal application of the word like even Eb uses when describing Harry's acquisition of Demonreach. Which is not a mantle of power, it's a mantle of responsibility. When Meryl died she didn't pass on a 'troll' mantle to anyone. So saying there are 'liberal' uses of the term only further serves to illustrate that it matters most when the specific application of a mantle of power is used.
[10:06 AM] Boustrophedonic: Not everything is a mantle. Unless there's like. Six kings of summer and winter trapped deep in Demonreach or something
[10:07 AM] raidem: I tend to think once you get to the level of being imprisoned on Demonreach, you get to entities that if killed do have mantles of powers that will pass.  That power doesn't just go to zero.  We know that per Mother WInter.
[10:08 AM] Boustrophedonic: The only known transferrable mantles are the six queens
[10:08 AM] -EG-: No one said it gets destroyed. That doesn't mean it has to go to anyone specific either. It can simply go into the void, ether, cosmic essence...whatever you wanna call it. That's still change.(edited)
[10:09 AM] -EG-: Dispersal is change. Not wholesale destruction.
[10:09 AM] raidem: That "it" is the mantle. It can be dispersed.  It can be never again worn.(edited)
[10:10 AM] -EG-: No that 'it' is the power that being held. A mantle is power that goes to other beings specifically because it was designed to do that. Forged that way.
[10:10 AM] Boustrophedonic: Yeah, like when Aurora intended to pass on her mantle's power to the entirety of the Winter court to upset the balance
[10:10 AM] raidem: Thank you.
[10:11 AM] Boustrophedonic: That was meant to be a reply to EG's message after my message
[10:11 AM] raidem: It applies to mine.
[10:11 AM] -EG-: It really doesn't. Because she HAD a mantle.
[10:12 AM] -EG-: If random Fae X had been shanked on that slab, the balance would not have been tossed aside and thrown into chaos just cuz his power got added to Winter.
[10:12 AM] raidem: The reason her mantle went to power is because it went via teh stone.
[10:12 AM] raidem: Otherwise it would have stayed a mantle.
[10:14 AM] raidem: Ideas create mantles.
[10:14 AM] ZQKing: hur dur mantles
[10:14 AM] -EG-: And if a wizard was killed on the stone his power would have gone into Winter too. That doesn't mean the wizard holds a mantle. If he or she dies normally the power they hold doesn't then reconstitute into another being. What you were ascribing to the things in the Well are mantles of power, that even if the entities died that power would still be transferred. There is no reason to assume that.(edited)
[10:14 AM] ZQKing: am i participating yet
[10:15 AM] raidem: "mantles, power" they could be 'eaten' by the Outsiders for the purposes of the main argument to which you argued couldn't happen(edited)
[10:16 AM] -EG-: Based on what? What Outsider has been showed to 'eat' magic and add it to their power?
[10:17 AM] -EG-: Even if it was still 'cosmic Halloween' it wouldn't necessarily matter, Outsiders are from OUTSIDE. Who's to say they absolutely can add to their power the same way those in reality can.
[10:17 AM] raidem: For one, immortals eat power on halloween.  And I guess YOU can absolutely say they CAN'T add to their power the same way those in reality can.
[10:18 AM] raidem: I mean we see in White Knight a Outsider possess Vittorio. So, he wears that Outsider.(edited)
[10:19 AM] Vicissitude: I think that was more of a transfer than an absorbtion. A give and take
[10:20 AM] raidem: It was  a instance of something while I think.  WOJL has it though that HWWBefore in Cold Day being Vittorio was a better idea than what Jim had. (Vittorio was fan idea)(edited)
[10:23 AM] raidem: We see HWWBefore 'mantlelike' escape after he gets shot by Harry at the end of Cold Days.  Compare the mantlelike behavior vs. the Ladies.

[10:25 AM] -EG-: Except I didn't say they absolutely could not. Just because you decided to make an absolute statement like "mantles, power" they could be 'eaten' by the Outsiders for the purposes of the main argument" doesn't mean that when I say there's no reason to assume that out of hand, that i'm saying it's utterly impossible. That's not how it works.
The totality of the situation suggests, more likely, that the Ladies were going to loose the Well on November First (post 'cosmic' Halloween) because it would give those beings a much better chance of surviving the Banefire which would normally kill them, especially if it was on 'cosmic' Halloween. Then it became your position that it wouldn't matter when it was, because the mantles of those creatures would survive...again...an assertion you made that it was just a given, despite the fact that nothing (let alone most of the things there) can just out and out be assumed to hold a mantle of power that would survive and transfer.
It's not a 'mantle-like' escape on the part of the Walker, anymore than a Demon getting killed in the mortal world is a 'mantle-like' escape back to the Nevernever. In both instances a body needs to be provided for them to be on this plane in the first place. That doesn't mean the power transfers to and fro, making new 'Walker' and 'demons'. It's still the same creature in the end.
[10:26 AM] raidem: I never made the position that "it wouldn't matter when it was, because the mantle of those creatures would survive"
[10:27 AM] -EG-: "If Demonreach was hit on actual Cosmic Halloween, then the mantles would live, the entities wielding them would die."
[10:27 AM] raidem: so no "assertion you made that it was just a given, despite the fact that nothing"
[10:27 AM] -EG-: You gave them all a mantle, more or less, out of hand.
[10:28 AM] raidem: I deemed it reasonable that they have a "power, mantle" of themself that survives their death that something can come along to gobble up and increase the consumers power by doing so.  that is the 'mantle' definition I'm using.  So when I say mantle, you say power. I think we are using different words for same/similar definition.(edited)
[10:31 AM] raidem: I have an enlarged definition for mantle.  You have a restricted one.  It largely arises from Jim's use of it in a variety of contexts.(edited)
--- End quote ---


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--- Quote ---[10:34 AM] raidem: We don't know exactly what happened to HWWBefore in Cold Days.  Mac believed it was 'killable.'  I'd say Harry did what Mac reasonably expected for Harry to do.  I mean Harry shot HWWBefore on Halloween with Winter magic, with soulfire, with wizard magic, with starborn power.
[10:35 AM] raidem: If it really was a escape back to the nevernever, all HWWBefore had to do was pull a Tiny and transfer over right then and there.  Instead, he retreated toward the direction his troops retreated.
[10:39 AM] -EG-: The escape to the Nevernever bit was about Demons and how they 'die' but don't really die. You called it a 'mantle-like' escape on the Walker's part. I said it's no more a mantle like escape then a Demon who's body is destroyed here is a mantle like escape. The body is destroyed, they retreat their essence back. In a Demon's case it was to the NN, in the Walker's it was 'away', back the Outside like HHWBefore when Harry 'killed' him. Either way, the point was if it held a mantle of power like the Queens, then it could have simply found the next 'eligible' host. But demons don't do that and neither do Walkers. They go back to the Outside and have to be re-summoned once more.(edited)
[10:51 AM] raidem: When I say mantlelike, I proposed the possibility that a HWWBefore actually died and his mantle passed in a similar way to the Ladies.  That said, your description of what occurred is more likely to be true.  That is why I described it as 'mantlelike' escape.  It was his 'power/mantle' that was escaping because it was at risk.  It very well may  have different rules than what governs the passing of mantles that we have seen with the Ladies and been told takes place with the other Queens.  I allow for the possibility that HWWBefore has a 'mortal' from Outside, or concquered Inside for that matter, that wears the mantle.(edited)
[10:54 AM] raidem: It really depends on the nature of the Outside. It is an entire civilization that exists in Outside that is threatened by our Universe. per WOJL(edited)
[11:03 AM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Which WoJ is that?
[11:34 AM] raidem: It's the one where Jim mentions writing from Outsider's point of view.
[11:44 AM] raidem: There is also the WOJL that suggests ideas creating mantles so there is yet another description of Jim using 'mantle' not fitting @-EG-  limited defintion(edited)
[11:55 AM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: I'm looking at the website and not seeing it which is why I figured I would ask.  I'm not seeing one on the creation of mantles either, other than someone asked if the Erlking could make a Wyld Knight mantle and Jim says he's not powerful enough.
[11:56 AM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Interestingly it looks like Elder is a mantle for the fae, so EG is likely mantle powered.
[11:56 AM] raidem: yep
[11:56 AM] raidem: I'll have to dig deeper later on for both
[11:57 AM] raidem: There are many transcriptions that get deleted on the forum from which the WOJ compilation gets some of its source material from(edited)
[11:58 AM] raidem: And the WOJ compilation doesn't get updated
[12:15 PM] Godslayer: @-EG-  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the attack on Demonreach two fold? The Ladies were attacking the doorway, but the boats hitting the beach was the real attack
[12:16 PM] Godslayer: If that attack had worked, the island would have blown during Halloween, which would have made all of the creatures trapped  below mortal and someone could have then harnassed all of that power into a huge Darkhallow ritual
[12:16 PM] Godslayer: As for prep time, there were three boats all running rituals at the time.
[12:17 PM] raidem: Yep
[12:17 PM] -EG-: The barges were support for the real attack but also a diversion.
 "The Walker was just the distraction," I breathed. "Dammit, they're not pulling that same trick on me this time." I turned to them and said, "I think someone's up at the top of the hill, and whatever they're doing, it ain't good. Stay right behind me. Come on." -Cold days
[12:17 PM] Godslayer: Yeah, but I sort of think that was just Harry's assumption
[12:18 PM] Godslayer: We later learn that the attack by the ladies was no real threat(edited)
[12:18 PM] raidem: Maeve wasn't privy to Outsider's ultimate plans
[12:18 PM] -EG-: Just because it wasn't a threat doesn't mean it wasn't the main attack.
[12:18 PM] raidem: She was privy to her plans
[12:18 PM] Godslayer: Yeah, Maeve was just a pawn
[12:18 PM] -EG-: DR chose to act the way it did, the Ladies not knowing that is irrelevant. They were the climax, they were in the 'circle'.
[12:19 PM] Godslayer: If the boats had touched the beach, the island would have blown, I call that a main attack
[12:19 PM] Godslayer: the ladies on the other hand never had a chance
[12:19 PM] Godslayer: Why would the real big bad let Maeve do anything?
[12:19 PM] Godslayer: She was just a pawn
[12:20 PM] -EG-: She's still essential to the ritual otherwise why use her at all.
[12:20 PM] Godslayer: I think they were really just trying to get rid of Mab
[12:20 PM] -EG-: "This doesn't make any sense," I said. "The ritual would still need a platform, and that would take time and work to set up-at least a day. It would show. They haven't even gotten onto the island y-" Then the truth hit me in a flash. "The barges," I said. "They set up a ritual platform on one of the barges. It's the only thing that makes sense."
"The waters of the lake would diminish the power they could draw from the ley lines running beneath it," the Erlking said.
"Yeah," I said. "That's why they're assaulting the shore. They're going to force a breach and then run the barge aground on the island. That'll put them in direct contact with the ley line." -Cold Days
[12:21 PM] -EG-: So they are still being used as a support, a connection to the Ladies on the hill. A combined effort to get the end result.(edited)
[12:21 PM] Godslayer: That doesn't track
[12:21 PM] Godslayer: The ladies couldn't access anything on the barges
[12:22 PM] Godslayer: they were behind a circle
[12:22 PM] -EG-: They could still tap into the ley line.
[12:22 PM] Godslayer: the barges hit the beach and tap into the ley, then the ritual on the barge goes off and boom(edited)
[12:23 PM] raidem: You got it right.
[12:23 PM] raidem: Harry HAD to defeat the barges landing and tapping the power on Demonreach.(edited)
[12:23 PM] Godslayer: And I can think of only two reasons to do the attack on Halloween
[12:23 PM] Godslayer: #1. You actually want to destory all of the dark things in Demonreach
[12:23 PM] Godslayer: #2. You want their power
[12:24 PM] -EG-: #3 you want to set them loose and let them destroy the world.
[12:24 PM] Godslayer: Hell, if the barges had hit, the ladies would have both died too
[12:24 PM] raidem: We know the banefire would have killed them. Their power/mantle would have been released to be gobbled up.(edited)
[12:24 PM] Godslayer: #3 isn't valid. They would have all died
[12:25 PM] Godslayer: and they would have never come back
[12:25 PM] Godslayer: Because Halloween
[12:25 PM] raidem: Their power could still be gobbled up.(edited)
[12:26 PM] Godslayer: I see no reason why now that the Darkhallow is out there someone couldn't be trying to improve on it
[12:26 PM] Godslayer: Could be Cowl. Could be Mavra. Could be a lot of people.
[12:26 PM] Godslayer: Could have just been the Outsiders
[12:27 PM] raidem: Remember the Wild Hunt was out there running around.  Last time we know they were running around, it was halloween in Dead Beat.
[12:27 PM] Godslayer: But man, there were a fuckton of Outsiders on earth that night and that's never been explained
[12:27 PM] raidem: Very true.  They had mortals on those barges too.  So they have a source of magic users.  I think the Fomor have an alliance with them to topple Winter/Summer.  Maybe, Maybe not.  They just think they can use Outsiders for this limited purpose then come to at the last minute to stand against the Outside.(edited)
[12:32 PM] raidem: Another reason to support the idea that those prisoners within Demonreach have 'mantles/power'.  They exist here. They haven't been consigned to oblivion yet, unless oblivion is Demonreach but I'd guess not.  If there is an idea of those prisoners in Demonreach in the minds of humans, then 'they-in the most encompassing definition' couldn't be destroyed. Their idea would exist so the potential for something to assume this idea, their mask/mantle (in the nature of WOJL on human ideas creating mantles) remains.(edited)

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--- Quote ---[12:44 PM] -EG-: @Godslayer The spell from the barges blow up the island and the top half of North America. Does it mean it automatically can get past the barrier or starlight that was the 'defense' circle the Ladies and their retinue were in? Harry's limited Intellectus could not get past it. Hell nothing not 'made of the island' or connected to it could. And Demonreach is susceptible to 'injury' via the destruction of it's physical form.
"Also, people have a few things wrong about the Gatekeeper and the island.  The Gatekeeper did not hurt Demonreach.  Gatekeeper has been on the island a couple of times, and it’s never gone well, but he didn’t cause Demonreach’s limp.  That’s the work of the glacier that carved out Lake Michigan."
So if the Outsiders blow the island more or less to hell, and weaken DR to point where it can no longer sustain a credible defense, the Well could have still been intact behind the circle. Hence the dual assault. Barges blow up DR's 'body', and since the amount of energy needed to do that is enormous enough to need to tap into a ley line, they take the upper midwest with it...and then the Ladies inside the circle finish it off the weakened remnants if the explosion is not enough to do the trick, setting forth the things in the Well that were behind that circle now and leaving the Ladies to contend with the 'Banefire', which Odin considered a dubious proposition in and of itself.(edited)
[12:44 PM] -EG-: I get Maeve was a pawn, but why are the Outsiders the ones with all the answers in this scenario that they knew precisely what to do and how to do it that it would have succeeded in this way? They couldn't even anticipate Mab having a backup to her backup.
To say nothing of the fact that, you're willing to say the barges were the main assault, the island goes boom for the purposes of 'eating' all that power, even killing the Ladies and everything there. So I ask you...who exactly is left in the general vicinity to eat that power? An explosion that was going to take the upper quadrant of the country with it and 'kill' all these newly mortal things in the Well...who is gonna be around within a thousand miles to 'take in' all this energy precisely?(edited)
[12:50 PM] Godslayer: That was my question :smiley:
[12:51 PM] Godslayer: It could have been the Outsider that Harry was fighting
[12:51 PM] Godslayer: Maybe someone in the Nevernever?
[12:52 PM] Godslayer: It could also be that the extent of the explosion was exaggerated
[12:52 PM] -EG-: That Outsider got merc'd by a bullet to the head, however 'enhanced' that bullet was, I don't know why it's body would have survived such a cataclysmic explosion but the things in the Well would not. And I don't think someone is going to drop in from the Nevernever into now the middle of a lake with nothing around it.
[12:53 PM] Godslayer: The person doing the rite could have already been in the nevernever
[12:53 PM] Godslayer: obviously I don't have any details
[12:53 PM] Godslayer: but if they weren't doing a rite... a lot of what happened doesn't make sense
[12:55 PM] -EG-: It does if, again, the spell goes off after 'cosmic' Halloween (sometime November First) and sets everything loose to destroy reality as we know it. The Outsiders want everything to 'end'. However that comes about. This is their only stated goal so far. So if that result is achieved, what do they care how.
[12:56 PM] -EG-: You think Vadderung, arguably the most well informed person in the whole series this side of like, Uriel, would not have maybe mentioned that possibility to Dresden in their discussion?
[12:57 PM] -EG-: "by the way you don't have to just worry about everything blowing up and those things being set loose, someone could conceivably be looking to gobble up that power with a secondary rite?"
[12:58 PM] -EG-: Because that strikes me as a reality ending threat of its own worth noting.
[1:10 PM] raidem: Vadderung didn't consider the bane fire dubious.  he considered freeing the entities within dubious as they'd be destroyed by the banefire. This still allows for their power to be at stake post banefire.(edited)
[1:11 PM] -EG-: "leaving the Ladies to contend with the 'Banefire', which Odin considered a dubious proposition in and of itself" so that's not even remotely what I sad.
[1:11 PM] raidem: I don't think the inner ward would have been much protection post barges landing and setting off their ritual
[1:14 PM] raidem: Vadderung didn't say : "leaving the Ladies to contend with the 'Banefire', which Odin considered a dubious proposition in and of itself" you did.  You mistakenly interpreted and paraphrased what he said.(edited)
[1:14 PM] -EG-: "Idiots," he breathed. "Even if they could defeat the banefire . . ."
[1:14 PM] Godslayer: @-EG-  The problem I see with that analysis is that it assumes that the opposition is dumb. Lily and Maeve had no chance of getting past Demonreach
[1:14 PM] raidem: you are saying 'they' is Ladies; vadderung knows 'they' isn't limited to Ladies nor just to what Ladies are going to do within the circle.  Vadderung's 'they' includes the entire operation and the goal of the operation(edited)
[1:16 PM] Godslayer: If the Barges had hit the beach, the island would have blown on Halloween... and Maeves assault had no chance... so what was the endgame?
[1:16 PM] -EG-: Yes, i'm saying in what I laid forth they would be the ones left to deal with it. 'They' doesn't really matter in this instance because 'whoever' was left to deal with it, Vadderung felt it was a dubious proposal. Which is why I said it to support the notion that we can't out of hand trust the Outsiders were fully competent and wholly able to handle events anymore than Maeve was.
[1:17 PM] raidem: Yeah, I think @-EG- is disregarding the impact the barges would have had if they did land.  It would have been a near game over.  HWWBefore goal was to do that which is why he suggested Mab would be irrelevant in a few days. AKA dead.(edited)
[1:18 PM] Godslayer: It would have been a game over... and keep in mind, Kringle and Erlking helped defeat the barges... they didn't give a damn about Maeve in the circle
[1:18 PM] raidem: Yep.
[1:19 PM] Godslayer: The Walker was on Team Barges... Cat Sith was on Team Barges.... the army of Outsiders was on team Barges
[1:19 PM] raidem: When I'm arguing though, @-EG- digs in his heels.  He won't stop. Trust me.(edited)
[1:20 PM] Godslayer: EG is always spot on in his arguments
[1:20 PM] raidem: LOL. I've had quite a few arguments with him. And he wasn't then and not now.
[1:21 PM] Godslayer: I'll politely disagree.  :smiley:
[1:22 PM] raidem: It's ok.  He argues well except when it gets to mantles and time travel.
[1:22 PM] Godslayer: Most likely we are all wrong
[1:22 PM] raidem: He has blind spots.  He is exceptional with finding WOJ's now though.(edited)
[1:22 PM] Godslayer: BUT... I do think there is more to the attack on Demonreach then what we've been assuming
[1:23 PM] raidem: I think there is a time travel army, agents operating too in background.
[1:23 PM] Godslayer: And even if you don't agree. There is still the question of who was behind it all
[1:25 PM] raidem: Remember there IS a multiverse in the background so we can't assume just one boring reality at play.
[1:27 PM] raidem: Right now, I'm irked with him. :smiley: Therefore we are arguing.  It reminds me of the good ole days.  And yes, he is a masterful debater.  We annoy each other greatly at times.(edited)
[1:31 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Literally was just reading the WoJ on the cosmology, so this one was interesting (along with the Jedi would be scary in the multiverse idea):
[1:31 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: "Jim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring."
[1:33 PM] raidem: AH... Eg post just disappeared
[1:34 PM] raidem: I think HWWBefore alleged it would be a clean up/mop up operation after the barges/Demonreach gambit which is why I described it as 'near game over.'(edited)
[1:37 PM] raidem: "continuum of possibility created by free will." So continuum created by free will creates parallel realities in whole or part to also include all/some mantles that exist in part of these realities.  the Hulk exists somewhere, his mantle exists... hercules mantle exists (refashioned into hulk?)(edited)
[1:43 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Two things:  A) the continuum is based in human choice.  Pretty standard multiverse theory that each individual choice spins off a new universe which we will see in action in Mirror, Mirror.  B) The implication seems to be that Hercules is dead, his mantle would be otherwise unrecognizable unless basically the Hulk is fulfilling that role in modern times.  Especially due to belief granting things power.  I still don't really see a basis for creating new mantles.  It's left to the imagination that perhaps mab+ would be able to do it, but I don't see an indication where it has happened in the verse and we've seen it in book or WoJ.
[1:45 PM] -EG-: @Godslayer these are, again, the same people who didn't realize Mab had a backup to a backup.
My point still stands, the island blowing up right then and there can simply be part of the plan if the Ladies and the 'Well' are still intact behind that circle. The meat of the island blows, they are left safe-ish up there and can complete the attack. It makes plenty of sense in its own way as an alternative. The assault does not have to be centered around 'gobbling' up all that power in order to be 'sensible'. Outsiders being less than 100% perfectly competent does the trick. A 'shielding' of those on the hill does the trick. And never once is the threat of the power being 'eaten' or absorbed by anyone brought up, either by Harry or the extremely reliable resources he consults and allies himself with before and during the battle (Odin/Kringle, Erlking).
And since there is no reason to assume the description of the explosion was 'overstated', then there is still no one around for hundreds if not thousands of miles to gobble up this supposed vortex of power left lingering there. The Nevernever also connects to this world. An explosion of that magnitude would almost certainly impact anyone in the immediate vicinity on the other side, at a minimum enough to distract them from the task at hand, if not outright 'reshape' and screw up the layout in the NN they were currently in. Especially when most people presuppose the NN side of DR is connected to, and an integral part of it's construction.(edited)
[1:45 PM] -EG-: And why would this person be able to prepare a ritual in the NN and 'carry' it over to the smoking husk of the island? People point to how maybe the Eebs survived in the NN because the curse would not have penetrated, what's to say this supposed ritual is gonna be able to 'cross over' if your starting point is there? And again, even if it does, where is this person gonna literally, physically stand in order to finish in the mortal world? Nothing's left, even if you were granted the explosion being 'overstated' it certainly was going to take the whole island and surrounding area with it by your own belief.
So all in all, there are ways it can work that makes sense. It doesn't 'have' to be a secondary ritual and desire to 'eat' all that power for the goals to be achieved.
[1:56 PM] Godslayer: So what was the goal?
[1:56 PM] Godslayer: And whose goal was it?
[1:58 PM] Godslayer: @-EG-

--- End quote ---

(click to show/hide)
--- Quote ---[2:00 PM] raidem: "And never once is the threat of the power being 'eaten' or absorbed by anyone brought up, either by Harry or the extremely reliable resources he consults and allies himself with before and during the battle (Odin/Kringle, Erlking)."   It's on Halloween.  Bob tells him immortals are mortal on Halloween.  Jim says to be on Earth makes one to some degree mortal.(edited)
[2:01 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Am I being overly simplistic when I say that the entire plan was a prison break?  Beyond that, from what you guys have put out here so far, I'm sure it was a nice secondary goal to take out the ladies and disrupt their mantles (by giving them to less experienced hosts if nothing else).  But that's all I took away from it initially.
[2:03 PM] raidem: Those beings, some if not most, within Demonreach are immortals.  Something was going to gobble them up.  The Wild Hunt, Erlking, and Kringle all enjoyed hunting on Halloween.  They don't get nothing from a hunt.  They got power.  And likely, they got some power from defeating the Outsiders.(edited)
[2:04 PM] raidem: Remember, the Walkers are usually summoned with a sacrifice.  So, they usually get a mortal 'mask' to more fully anchor them to this world.  That sacrifice is power that is part of our world and would be subject to being eaten by our world's rules.(edited)
[2:06 PM] raidem: HWWBefore said it was going to be over in a few days.  As in Mab would be dead I think.  He said some such things at Mac's place.  And, it would just be a mop up operation.  Whatever was planned, they wanted Mab out of the picture.(edited)
[2:08 PM] -EG-: @Godslayer To set forth the things in the Well, as was stated. Either via protection from the circle or some other method. Talking about the differences between when 'cosmic' Halloween ends has merit, but that's why I think 'November First' is key there. They plan to hit the spell after Halloween ends for better insulation or protection from the banefire. The barges hitting the island trigger the ritual, does it have to be instantaneous and right that second? Maybe, maybe not.

"So this . . . time bomb. It has to come from how close?" I asked.

"The shores of the lake, I suspect," Vadderung said. "The island itself would be the ideal location, but I doubt that it will cooperate with any such effort." -Cold Days

It's still considered a 'time bomb' even when they hit the shores. I can't find any other quote that describes an instantaneous 'game over' scenario that has been suggested here. They hit the island, the ritual locks and they fight, fuel, do whatever they do to build up the power with the ley line, then November First hits, gets past the Halloween problem, and 'boom'.(edited)
[2:10 PM] raidem: But you still say that it hits November First.  There is a fuzziness to that particular date given potential of time travel, and timetravel distortion used against Wild Hunt which Vadderung helps them escape.
[2:11 PM] raidem: The 'game over' scenario is what HWWBefore describes in a mop up operation.
[2:11 PM] raidem: Vadderung doesn't specifically say november 1st
[2:11 PM] -EG-: I'm not saying it, DR through Bob is saying it.
[2:11 PM] raidem: post Bob saying it.
[2:12 PM] raidem: I think I'm remember a bit now.
[2:12 PM] -EG-: "Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy-flares that I had been sensing ever since I'd gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.

Text at the bottom read, NOVEMBER 1.

"By tomorrow," I said. "Super. But I still don't see what is wrong, Bob."

"Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe." -Cold Days
[2:13 PM] raidem: It was by tomorrow
[2:13 PM] raidem: 'by tomorrow' isn't hitting tomorrow
[2:13 PM] raidem: the screen went white by november 1st
[2:14 PM] -EG-: Suggesting that's when it happens. Because if it happens before, or after, then it never gets to November First or a different date would be used.
[2:15 PM] -EG-: The island blows up 'by tomorrow'.
[2:15 PM] raidem: by tomorrow is operative
[2:16 PM] -EG-: No it isn't, it's directly part of the conversation. 'by tomorrow' is not 'well anytime from this second to the next 24 hrs'. 'by tomorrow' means the energy will have reached critical mass at that point.
[2:16 PM] -EG-: That's why the date is used.
[2:16 PM] raidem: think like a fae.  the screen is white on november 1st.
[2:17 PM] raidem: so yes, demonreach is destroyed, banefire is released.
[2:17 PM] raidem: but that doesn't mean the screen isn't white before november 1st
[2:17 PM] raidem: which is 'by tomorrow'
[2:18 PM] -EG-: Bob sighed. "Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they've figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren't attacking it in three dimensions. They're attacking in four. They're sending power through time as well as through space."

"So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"

"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."

"Uh . . ."

"Look, the rock they're throwing hits tomorrow," Bob said. "But you have to stop them from throwing it at whatever point they're standing when they throw it." -Cold Days
[2:19 PM] raidem: that is stronger evidence but we are still at the definition of cosmic halloween
[2:19 PM] -EG-: They're throwing it from the barges. It builds up and hits the next day. Halloween no longer applies, stuff in the Well goes free.
[2:19 PM] Vicissitude: "See what I'm working with here!? I had to boil that down to throwing a rock before he got it!"
[2:20 PM] raidem: not quite, its tomorrow in chicago but not tomorrow in alaska
[2:20 PM] raidem: so we still have to deal with cosmic halloween
[2:21 PM] raidem: and the throwing a rock has to stop
[2:22 PM] raidem: the landing of the rock at that point it seems is unstoppable
[2:22 PM] -EG-: "How big a window do I have? When does Halloween night end?" I asked.

"At the first natural morning birdsong," Bob replied promptly. "Songbirds, rooster, whatever. They start to sing, the night ends."

"Oh, good. A deadline." I narrowed my eyes, thinking. "Gives me a bit more than twenty-four hours, then," I muttered. "And all I have to do is find her, when she can be anywhere in the world or the Nevernever, then get her here, then beat her down, all without her escaping or killing me first. Simple." -Cold Days

Halloween doesn't just continue everywhere simply because Alaska got left behind. It might still be valid IN Alaska, but not in Chicago.
[2:23 PM] raidem: Well we know that he had a birthday party in Winter and now he is told that he has more than 24 hours.  So, the calendar is already a bit off.
[2:24 PM] raidem: So, cosmic Halloween ends at first natural morning birdsong
[2:25 PM] raidem: 'by tomorrow' is operative with regard to the white screen.  bob dumbed it down further to 'rock hits tomorrow'(edited)
[2:26 PM] raidem: the thing to prevent is rock thrown
[2:27 PM] raidem: so rock thrown is halloween, rock hit, for your purposes, is november 1st
[2:28 PM] raidem: there is one other thing the outsiders was trying to do.  they tried to take Harry to their side. they tried to take him as leader of wild hunt. they also may have tried to get him to tap into Demonreach himself.(edited)
[2:29 PM] raidem: When do you think rock thrown is?
[2:29 PM] -EG-: How, in any way, does him having a 'birthday party' in Arctis Tor...where time is already different than in the real world...make the calendar off? So 'cosmic halloween' has this rigid start to it, signified by Harry's birthday, but it's ending is fluid that you keep arguing this point. He returns to Chicago at night, has 'a little more than 24 hrs' to stop what's gonna happen.

It has nothing to do with 'my purposes' because you keep thinking when the rock is thrown matters for something more than that being when Harry has to stop it. The rock hitting on November 1st, as it was stated to do, is the important part. Because you and Godslayer are arguing the only way this whole scene by the Outsiders works, is if someone is slated to come along and gobble up their power because they die on Halloween. Halloween will have passed, as I said all along.
[2:30 PM] Godslayer: @-EG-  Everything you wrote makes sense. But I think Jim is pulling a fast one on us. And did a damn good job since now one has noticed yet :wink:
[2:30 PM] Godslayer: For one simple reason: Why do this on Halloween at all?
[2:31 PM] raidem: Ok. Here it is.  Why assume the rock hit is the direct reason it went white.(edited)
[2:31 PM] -EG-: Because if Mab, or any other 'power' player who cannot ordinarily die tries to stop them...they can kill her?
[2:31 PM] -EG-: For keeps.
[2:31 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Oh, that's a good point.
[2:31 PM] Godslayer: And she can kill them... which is a much more likely outcome
[2:31 PM] Godslayer: which is what happened
[2:31 PM] Godslayer: many outsiders were lost that night
[2:32 PM] Vicissitude: More where that came from, I'd imagine.
[2:32 PM] raidem: It doesn't matter when the rock hits.  Demonreach will kill it's prisoners before the rock hits on November 1st.
[2:32 PM] -EG-: Again, i'm not saying this plan was perfect. You were the one saying it didn't make sense. And HHWBefore isn't 'dead' for keeps, just his body is.
[2:32 PM] Vicissitude: I imagine they'll reform outside somehow
[2:32 PM] Godslayer: Now, it could just be that Jim wanted to do the kill Maeve story and worked them both together
[2:32 PM] -EG-: His essence left.
[2:32 PM] Godslayer: but personally, I think Jim is sneakier than that
[2:32 PM] Godslayer: I think if he dies on Halloween he's dead for keeps too
[2:33 PM] raidem: See, this idea that the Outsiders can't be killed is stupid.
[2:33 PM] -EG-: Along with the .45-caliber bullet, I sent a column of pure energy and will surging down the barrel and into the Walker's skull. His head exploded, literally exploded, into streamers and gobbets of black ichor. His cloak of rags went mad, throwing the headless body into the air and sending it thrashing through the shallow water like a half-squashed bug. Dark vapor began issuing from the frantically twitching body-then suddenly gathered into a single cloud, all in a rush, and shot away, emitting a furious and agonized and terrorized scream as it went, alien but unmistakable. -Cold Days
[2:34 PM] -EG-: No one said 'outsiders can't be killed' like, at all.
[2:34 PM] -EG-: So call it stupid as you want, that's never been my argument.
[2:34 PM] -EG-: Outsiders clearly die all the time, it's just hard.
[2:34 PM] -EG-: The Walker, did not.
[2:34 PM] Godslayer: Do you think he'll be back?
[2:34 PM] -EG-: You don't?
[2:35 PM] -EG-: That thing was stated to be of a same general league as Mab, of course it will be back.
[2:35 PM] Vicissitude: I full expect to see the triumverate team up to fight Harry. Probably as the last fight before whatever the big bad Outsider leader turns out to be.
[2:35 PM] -EG-: Just as HHWBehind came back.
[2:38 PM] raidem: Dark vapor began issuing from the frantically twitching body-then suddenly gathered into a single cloud, all in a rush, and shot away, emitting a furious and agonized and terrorized scream as it went, alien but unmistakable. -Cold Days  Yeah, I construed this to possibly be its mantle without the wearer.(edited)
[2:38 PM] -EG-: And that's why I said it's like a Demon from the NN, who when it's body dies, it's essence goes back from whence it came. That doesn't make the Demon a mantle.
[2:39 PM] Vicissitude: Huh. Yeah, the Summer and Winter Lady mantles did the same thing when they left their hosts, just in more recognizable forms
[2:39 PM] Vicissitude: But I think Outsiders are just, you know, Outsiders.
[2:39 PM] raidem: It does if it gets a new wearer
[2:39 PM] raidem: They are Outsiders but they have their own civilization, etc.
[2:39 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Yeah, pretending that the outsiders are bound to the same metaphysical rules is a big mistake in my opinion.  That's pretty much the point of them being outsiders.
[2:40 PM] -EG-: You have to actively summon a new body for an Outsider and a Demon, mortals do this, it doesn't just up and reconstitute or find a new host on its own.
[2:40 PM] -EG-: Ergo, not a mantle.
[2:40 PM] raidem: You have to get a new body for a Lady mantle. Molly was a new body.  Sarissa was a new body.(edited)
[2:41 PM] Godslayer: Yeah, I  think he'll be back.
[2:41 PM] -EG-: The mantle seeks it out on its own, the Walker does not. They get resummoned.
[2:41 PM] Godslayer: Could go a couple of ways I think
[2:42 PM] raidem: They get resummoned into a body. At least in one case in blood rites.(edited)
[2:42 PM] Godslayer: someone else could become the walker, sort of like a mantle
[2:42 PM] Godslayer: or it wasn't really "killed" meaning they have to be killed in a special way
[2:42 PM] -EG-: ...yeah
[2:43 PM] -EG-: It wasn't 'killed' just it's body destroyed.
[2:43 PM] raidem: Well, it's got to get a new wearer likely.  WOJL did say Vitorrio becoming HWWBefore was a good idea.(edited)
[2:44 PM] -EG-: Likely? Other than Vittorio every Walker got its own 'body' made for it, just like a Demon does.
[2:44 PM] -EG-: Sharkface wasn't possessing someone, it was it's own icky thing.
[2:44 PM] raidem: How do you know?
[2:45 PM] -EG-: I read.
[2:45 PM] raidem: And Jim mentioned that "Sharkface being Vittorio's leftover's" a good idea, better than his has no bearing?(edited)
[2:46 PM] -EG-: Ok and? He also said Eternal Silence being the part of DR the glacier carved out was a 'good idea'. That doesn't mean he said 'yeah that's canon now'.(edited)
[2:48 PM] raidem: I definitely wasn't aware of that. And for it to make sense, the stones in that region were cut by glaciers.  I do believe there was a suggestion that Eternal Silence's material came from Demonreach.  Its really not so pertinent though.(edited)
[2:49 PM] Vicissitude: Huh. You know, I never thought twice about how Demonreach was able to speak to Harry in chicago
[2:49 PM] -EG-: 'It bullied Mab."
[2:49 PM] Vicissitude: I just chalked it up to his body still being on the island and there being a connection that way
[2:49 PM] raidem: It did via Mab.
[2:49 PM] Vicissitude: Ah, so, shenanigans. Got it.
[2:50 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Like most things:  It started with Shenanigans.
[2:50 PM] raidem: Back to the white screen, I'd argue the white screen is the bane fire.  That is immediately prior to the last second before cosmic halloween occurs.
[2:52 PM] raidem: This would be the failsafe to destroy  the prisoners in case of escape.  Rock hit can be tomorrow but white screen be 'by tomorrow'.
[2:52 PM] raidem: In any event, should Mab be within teh warded circle when the banefire hit, she'd be dead. The ladies would be dead. The prisoners dead. Lot's of things dead. Many powers would be up for grabs.  The outergates would likely be breached.(edited)
[2:53 PM] Godslayer: Hmm... I'm starting to think that Halloween doesn't work on Outsiders
[2:54 PM] Godslayer: Or at least Halloween doesn't work on Walkers
[2:54 PM] raidem: See, this trivializes what Harry did.
[2:55 PM] raidem: Harry accomplished something more than he did when he was 16.
[2:55 PM] Godslayer: When he shot Before?
[2:55 PM] raidem: yes.
[2:55 PM] raidem: Can we say he did more than what he did when he was 16?
[2:55 PM] Godslayer: Maybe. I'm open to the possability
[2:55 PM] Godslayer: But I am thinking that the 3 Walkers just can't be killed
[2:55 PM] raidem: I disagree.  Mac disagreed.
[2:56 PM] -EG-: Based on what? He was 16, a Walker 'died' and he escaped. He was almost 40, a Walker 'died' and he escaped. What is more special about this time around.
[2:56 PM] raidem: There are three.
[2:56 PM] Godslayer: How did Mac disagree?
[2:56 PM] raidem: Winter, magic, soulfire.
[2:56 PM] raidem: Kill it.
[2:57 PM] raidem: Winter magic, and soulfire are two elements he didn't have when he was 16
[2:57 PM] -EG-: And the end result was precisely the same. The body was destroyed, the Walker fled. His magic bullet didn't do anything 'more' than his gas station explosion did at 16. Could you argue it hurt the Walker more, ok fine. But in the end, the result is the same.(edited)
[2:57 PM] Godslayer: that might just be Mac using as few letters as possible
[2:57 PM] raidem: End result wasn't the same.  In one, HWWBefore kept talking as he died in the fire.  In the other, he was reduced to retreating shrieking gas cloud.(edited)
[2:58 PM] raidem: That isn't the same.
--- End quote ---

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