The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach

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raidem:
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--- Quote ---[3:01 PM] -EG-: The. End. Result. Is. The. Same. The Walker was 'defeated', and 'killed'. The method was different, the result was the same. Arguing the semantics of 'how' it happened doesn't change what I said. You can believe it trivialized Harry's actions, I say it shows his power is growing now and he doesn't have to rely on a giant explosion to 'beat' a Walker's body.
[3:01 PM] -EG-: But either way, beat it he did.
[3:02 PM] raidem: When you show me that this : Dark vapor began issuing from the frantically twitching body-then suddenly gathered into a single cloud, all in a rush, and shot away, emitting a furious and agonized and terrorized scream as it went, alien but unmistakable." happens when he was 16, then you can say The. End. Result. Is. The. Same. The walker was 'defeated', and 'killed'.(edited)
[3:03 PM] raidem: And you, we, don't know the exact results.  You say you know but you don't.  Jim knows. And until he confides in you personally, don't tell me the end result is the same. We don't KNOW entirely the significance of it happening on halloween by a Starborne with Winter and Soulfire.(edited)
[3:04 PM] Vyor: HWWBehind was jobbing in that fight
[3:04 PM] Vyor: HWWBefore was actually fighting
[3:04 PM] raidem: EXACTLY.
[3:04 PM] raidem: See this is EG being EG.
[3:05 PM] Vyor: End result is the same however
[3:05 PM] Vyor: How they got there and the situation is what makes it different
[3:05 PM] -EG-: "I stared at the flames and saw a shape within it—or, rather, I saw a creature-shaped void where the smoke and fire should have been. A voice emerged from the fire, something huge and terrifying, a voice that belonged to gods and monsters of myth.
"HOW DARE YOU!" it roared. "HOW DARE YOU RAISE YOUR HAND AGAINST ME!"
Then that not-figure crashed to its knees and fell limply onto its side." -Ghost Story

Jobbing or not, the dude was still pissed and surprised. He reacts just that way.(edited)
[3:06 PM] raidem: We don't KNOW the end result. We can only speculate with our imprecise knowledge of the end result.  Have we had imprecise knowledge before that made us make incorrect assumptions... YES(edited)
[3:07 PM] Vyor: they both seem pretty alive to me.
[3:07 PM] -EG-: Harry destroyed it's body, the Walker fled, he got to go on. Again, as I said, he may well have 'hurt' Before more than normal. That doesn't change what we saw on screen. Both times.
[3:07 PM] Vyor: And very much not dead
[3:08 PM] derpatron: you can't kill an outsider, this is touched upon in one of the early books
[3:08 PM] derpatron: you basically just banish it back to the outside
[3:08 PM] raidem: By a Harry that doesn't quite get the truth of matters.(edited)
[3:08 PM]

escape to cancel • enter to save
[3:09 PM] -EG-: Yeah yeah, unreliable narrator. How dare he tell us what he sees with his own eyes and how dare it parallel one another both times.
[3:09 PM] derpatron: no he said that you can destroy their body
[3:09 PM] derpatron: that's not killing them
[3:09 PM] -EG-: Outsiders die at the Gates. In waves. Walkers it seems cannot die by a method we yet know.
[3:09 PM] Vyor: Outsiders can likely die.
[3:09 PM] Vyor: Walkers... are a maybe
[3:10 PM] raidem: Can Walkers die at the Gates?(edited)
[3:10 PM] derpatron: I don't think a walker would be dumb enough to try the front door
[3:10 PM] raidem: I say yes.
[3:10 PM] derpatron: they're usually brought in by someone in the mortal world for one reason or another
[3:11 PM] raidem: I asked about at the gates
[3:11 PM] derpatron: and I'm wondering why a walker would use the gates in the first place
[3:14 PM] raidem: And, people tend to have the opinion that Outsiders can't die.
[3:14 PM] derpatron: what even is dying in the realm of the outside anyway
[3:14 PM] raidem: What the Outsiders do when they leave their bones on teh Outside portion of the OuterGates.
[3:15 PM] derpatron: is that actually dying?
[3:15 PM] raidem: That would happen to the Walker.
[3:15 PM] raidem: And, the Walker mantle would likely run screeching as a gas cloud...
[3:16 PM] derpatron: is it a mantle?
[3:16 PM] raidem: Its a power.(edited)
[3:17 PM] derpatron: are we sure of that
[3:17 PM] raidem: So either its an Outsider that is killed like all other Outsiders.
[3:17 PM] -EG-: It is if you close your eyes and keep saying it apparently. Despite paralleling how 'demons' die in the DV and their essence, the thing they actually were, returns from whence it came. And no one calls Demons a mantle.
[3:17 PM] raidem: Or its an Outsider that has a mantle of 'Knight.'
[3:18 PM] derpatron: where is that brought up?
[3:18 PM] raidem: So which is it EG. Does the Walker die like any other Outsdier at the gates or what?
[3:18 PM] derpatron: I'm Bob Loblaw, the Outside Knight
[3:18 PM] raidem: Bestow your wealth of knowlege upon us.
[3:19 PM] derpatron: now you're just being rude
[3:19 PM] raidem: to EG
[3:19 PM] Godslayer: I think Walkers are sort of like Outsider Knights
[3:19 PM] raidem: And that would be a mantle.
[3:19 PM] derpatron: how do we make the jump that knight=mantle?
[3:19 PM] Godslayer: Define Mantle
[3:20 PM] raidem: power that is wearable(edited)
[3:20 PM] Godslayer: Walkers could be Mantles..... but I don't think so
[3:20 PM] Godslayer: But I won't argue either way on it. Just not worth the effort without more info
[3:21 PM] derpatron: Walkers are walkers, I don't think it's some transferrable thing
[3:21 PM] raidem: Well in Outsider heirarchy they are the least it seems of the 'royals'
[3:21 PM] Godslayer: I'm just not sure if Walkers are the masters or the servants yet
[3:21 PM] raidem: they are the least of the royals(edited)
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: I wouldn't say they are the least
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: but who knows
[3:22 PM] raidem: your right.
[3:22 PM] derpatron: They have a specific role
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: we only know of one being above them at this point, right?
[3:22 PM] Dragon: The outsiders are all of one mind right?
[3:22 PM] derpatron: I doubt there's a heirarchy
[3:22 PM] derpatron: they don't operate that way
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: No, they do
[3:22 PM] raidem: There is WOJL that says so
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: We are told they have a master
[3:22 PM] -EG-: Lasciel leaned closer. "He Who Walks Behind is an Outsider, Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities. But when he came for you, you overthrew him." -White Night*
[3:22 PM] derpatron: ah ok
[3:23 PM] -EG-: Old Ones run the show, more or less.
[3:23 PM] raidem: there is a WOJL though too
[3:23 PM] Godslayer: The Lord of Slowest Terror is who they follow, right?
[3:23 PM] raidem: HWWB is the Knight of him, yes
[3:24 PM] raidem: So, then we have to ask ourself is he the top of the food chain
[3:24 PM] raidem: I'd say probably not
[3:24 PM] derpatron: so basically Hellraiser
[3:24 PM] raidem: Where does Nemesis fit it?
[3:24 PM] raidem: It seems even the Mothers feared Nemesis
[3:25 PM] derpatron: LeMarchand :v
[3:25 PM] raidem: So that means Nemesis is on the order of Mother and higher
[3:25 PM] -EG-: Not what that means but, ok.
[3:25 PM] Vicissitude: Maybe not in power, but it can overthrow greater powers
[3:26 PM] raidem: could mean
[3:26 PM] raidem: I'm imprecise with language, spelling, etc (my fault on all).  Look more for gist of arguments.(edited)
[3:27 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Difference between powerful and dangerous. A la the Rashid WoJ.
[3:28 PM] raidem: So. To sum up arguments so far.
[3:29 PM] raidem: I've argued that some, many of the prisoners in Demonreach have mantles/power.
[3:30 PM] raidem: That this/these mantles/powers would be released in destruction of Demonreach on cosmic Halloween.(edited)
[3:30 PM] raidem: That consumers (Outsiders, Insider) could take advantage of these resources by 'gobbling' them up.
[3:32 PM] raidem: I argue that Harry may have killed HWWBefore and we saw a 'mantlelike' essence retreat toward the retreating Outside army.
[3:33 PM] raidem: I argued that there was a difference, in some end result, between Harry killing HWWB and HWWBefore.  That killing HWWBefore on Halloween with Winter and Soulfire did something more than what occurred when he was just 16.
[3:35 PM] raidem: I argued that human ideas can create mantles. And that Jim has a liberal definition of the same word 'mantle.'
[3:36 PM] raidem: I argued that the white screen depicted by Bob is 'by tomorrow' not strictly November 1st. (cosmic Halloween would still be enforced)(edited)
[3:38 PM] raidem: I now say if on November 1st and not cosmic Halloween then the last option is what @-EG- suggests would take place, that of freeing the prisoners
[3:38 PM] raidem: However, even then it seems that white screen would still take place...
[3:39 PM] raidem: So is white screen banefire?
[3:39 PM] ZQKing: White screen was clarified to be Banefire
[3:40 PM] raidem: Banefire is 'by tomorrow' not necessarily when rock hits tomorrow(edited)
[3:40 PM] ZQKing: Banefire is an automatic fail-safe if the well is damaged beyond repair
[3:40 PM] ZQKing: So when the rock hits and destabilizes the island, kaboom.
[3:43 PM] Godslayer: I wonder if The Lord of Slowest Terror is Nemesis
[3:43 PM] raidem: yeah, I know what the banefire is but i'm looking at the timeline sequence of rock thrown, banefire, and rock hit.  Your input though is greatly appreciated
[3:44 PM] raidem: EG and I was discussing the particulars with regard to the 'rock hit', november 1st, and cosmic halloween.  All that coupled with immortality/mortality of the prisoners.(edited)
[3:47 PM] ZQKing: All of y'all

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[3:48 PM] Vicissitude: XD
[3:49 PM] Godslayer: Personally I think Cowl is the big bad of the series and is using the Walkers to his own ends. (And he's probably Justin)
[3:49 PM] Godslayer: :smile:
[3:56 PM] derpatron: lmao you got downvoted already by someone
[3:56 PM] derpatron: I wonder who could have done it
[3:56 PM] derpatron: :thinking:
[4:05 PM] raidem: OK. Now I got a better explanation of events.  Bob showed us only a model of what would/could happen.  He didn't know when exactly the rock would be thrown and therefore wouldn't know prercisely when it would hit.
[4:07 PM] raidem: We do know the events of the book.  Bobs model of the rock thrown and landing coincides with 'a scarlet' power hitting the westernshore of the island. This would be landing site of the barge.  We know this landing of the barge was during cosmic Halloween.  We know this because afterward, Lily and Maeve die during cosmic Halloween.(edited)
[4:11 PM] raidem: I'll mention that another time we have a 'scarlet power' was when Harry ate Kravos' animated ghost in GP.  In Summer Knight, when Mab buys Harry's debt to Lea and later meets with Harry, she stabs Harry's hand with a dagger.  She upon leaving sends a power of Winter through the wound up to Harry's heart.  I would argue that Mab could have been excising this lingering power remaining within Harry upon eating Kravos' heart.
[4:13 PM] raidem: So, the rock thrown=landing of barge would result in at some time a banefire event.  Bob's model doesn't show the exact time of such a rock thrown and landing, so EG nor Bob can't say with certainty that the rock landing would be November 1st, as it was only a model.(edited)
[4:15 PM] raidem: We do know however that "by tomorrow" is a definition in play as well as "cosmic halloween" and "november 1st"(edited)
[4:16 PM] -EG-: You can keep doing all the mental gymnastics you want here but Bob says the rock 'hits' on November 1st. He may have had to 'dumb' the model down for Harry, that doesn't mean the information was wrong. Because it's sort of essential to the whole plot.

I forced myself to look back at the projection, and saw those millions upon millions of spells resonating with one another, spreading and interlocking into an impenetrable barrier. It was, I thought, somehow like watching crystals grow. The spells powering the actual construction of it hadn't been, alone, too much stronger than some of the work I had done-but when they'd been interconnected with their counterparts across time, they'd fed upon one another, created a perfect resonance of energy that had become something infinitely greater than the sum of its parts.

Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy-flares that I had been sensing ever since I'd gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.

Text at the bottom read, NOVEMBER 1.

"By tomorrow," I said. "Super. But I still don't see what is wrong, Bob."

"Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe."

"FIRE," rumbled Demonreach.

"I figured that one out, thanks," I said. "But nothing has actually happened to the spells yet?"

"Nope," said Bob. "That tension that's building? It's . . . Well, think of it as cause and effect, only backward."

"Huh?"
[4:17 PM] -EG-: "What the island is experiencing now is the echo of the moment that burst of energy strikes it," Bob said. "Only instead of the echo happening after, it's happening first."

I stopped and thought. "You're telling me that the reason the island is about to blow up is . . . because it's about to blow up?"

Bob sighed. "Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they've figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren't attacking it in three dimensions. They're attacking in four. They're sending power through time as well as through space."

"So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"

"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."

"Uh . . ."

"Look, the rock they're throwing hits tomorrow," Bob said. "But you have to stop them from throwing it at whatever point they're standing when they throw it." -Cold Days
[4:17 PM] -EG-: Rock hits, banefire erupts, thus kablooie, thus death. Tomorrow. November first. There is no tricksy subterfuge definitions here.
[4:19 PM] -EG-: Harry has to stop them from releasing the spell, which was during Halloween, in those last hours. But it wasn't gonna connect till the next day.(edited)
[4:20 PM] raidem: Actually Bob says a bit more than twenty four hours, then.  And says it hits tomorrow.
[4:20 PM] raidem: That means it hits Halloween
[4:20 PM] -EG-: Harry says 'bit more than 24 hrs' for Halloween's time limit.
[4:20 PM] -EG-: From the moment he was back in Chicago, he had just over a day to stop everything from blowing up.
[4:20 PM] -EG-: November 1st. Again.
[4:21 PM] raidem: It was only a model.  The barge was it hitting the shoreline. That occured not november 1st
[4:21 PM] raidem: We saw it happen
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: oh for fuck's sakes
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: No
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: the barge was a fucking bargre
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: with a circle
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: It doesn't automatically go off
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: dingus
[4:21 PM] raidem: When it lands it goes off dingus
[4:22 PM] ZQKing: presumably it takes some time to set up a continent-cracking spell
[4:22 PM] -EG-: Post that quote then.
[4:22 PM] -EG-: Where barge hits, spell goes off instantly.(edited)
[4:22 PM] raidem: They had the ritual ready
[4:22 PM] ZQKing: Harry wanted to stop the boats because if the boats got to shore, they'd be able to finish preparations
[4:23 PM] raidem: Harry was preventing them from landing. The ritual was already being conducted.  They needed to run aground.  Harry stopped them. Thereby attack on Demonreach was averted.
[4:23 PM] raidem: The timebomb didn't happen
[4:24 PM] -EG-: And again, you find one quote that says that 'time bomb' goes off the second that barge touches. They were landing to build the ritual up off the ley lines.
[4:24 PM] ZQKing: I'm looking for quotes relating to the boats
[4:24 PM] ZQKing: "This doesn't make any sense," I said. "The ritual would still need a platform, and that would take time and work to set up-at least a day. It would show. They haven't even gotten onto the island y-" Then the truth hit me in a flash. "The barges," I said. "They set up a ritual platform on one of the barges. It's the only thing that makes sense."

"The waters of the lake would diminish the power they could draw from the ley lines running beneath it," the Erlking said.

"Yeah," I said. "That's why they're assaulting the shore. They're going to force a breach and then run the barge aground on the island. That'll put them in direct contact with the ley line."
[4:25 PM] raidem: Exactly.
[4:26 PM] -EG-: "If the ritual was already in progress, then there was a chance that they were simply in a holding pattern, maintaining the skeleton of the spell with their own limited energy and waiting until the right moment. Once they were close enough to use it, they'd drop their circle and channel the energy of the ley line, shaping it into the spell's muscles and organs, filling out the frame that was prepared to accommodate it. I had to make sure they never got that chance." -Cold Days

Not I had to make sure they stop or I blow up instantly.(edited)
[4:26 PM] raidem: The barges are the platform.  They were already doing the rituals so teh 'at least a day of setup' doesn't require that amount of time post landing.(edited)
[4:26 PM] ZQKing: It took harry about a minute to do his cheap and tiny by comparison gravity strike at chicen itza
[4:27 PM] ZQKing: Even with an outsider, I think that a continent-cracking breach of the most powerful magical construct in the world (so far) might take a little more energy being drawn in
[4:27 PM] ZQKing: and even more carefully
[4:30 PM] raidem: Yep.  You just provided evidence to support my position.  "The ritual was already in progress."(edited)
[4:30 PM] ZQKing: Actually I put evidence against it
[4:30 PM] ZQKing: it wouldn't be instantanious boom, like some fuckin mario touchin a goomba
[4:30 PM] ZQKing: effectively it'd be game over if a barge got on shore, but not instantanious
--- End quote ---

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--- Quote ---[4:31 PM] raidem: I didn't say it would be instantaneous.  I said it would be before cosmic halloween ended.
[4:31 PM] ZQKing: Ah yes
[4:31 PM] ZQKing: cosmic halloween
[4:31 PM] ZQKing: when the vulcans ransack romulus for candy
[4:31 PM] raidem: EG agrees with my definition simp(edited)
[4:33 PM] raidem: 'cosmic' halloween is needed to differentiate from mere halloween as mortal calendar doesn't align perfectly with cosmic events and conjunctions
[4:33 PM] raidem: so...
[4:35 PM] raidem: Any you are all relying on Bob's model as being correct in time,place.
[4:35 PM] raidem: Bob gave a model because he didn't know the exact particulars
[4:36 PM] raidem: If he had known the particulars he'd let Harry know.
[4:36 PM] -EG-: He knew them well enough to say 'the rock his tomorrow'.
[4:36 PM] raidem: But it didn't
[4:36 PM] ZQKing: All Bob knew is what the island knew
[4:36 PM] -EG-: It didn't hit at ALL. Because Harry stopped it.
[4:36 PM] raidem: It is a model.
[4:36 PM] ZQKing: and what the island knew is that something from somewhere was about to hit
[4:36 PM] ZQKing: demonreach's awareness is four-dimesnional
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: it has awareness of the future, probably
[4:37 PM] raidem: It new the attack would be western edge.
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: so it knows what's going ot happen right up until banefire, which would be the EQ of a demonreach death curse, for a comparison
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: Exactly
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: it knew everything right up until the banefire hit
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: as failing in its duties is simply not in the realm of comprehension
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: as noted in the book
[4:38 PM] raidem: He also said 'by tomorrow'
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: Yes
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: because
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: Demonreach, knowing the future, right up until the banefire goes of
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: would know, having the ability to know the future, when it would go off
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: aren't you the time travel guy
[4:38 PM] raidem: I don't argue with that.
[4:39 PM] raidem: I'm arguing about the banefire being within 'cosmic' haloween which EG is arguing is manifestly impossible given Bob's model
[4:39 PM] ZQKing: I'm now confused
[4:40 PM] -EG-: Because you're arguing against the text, because you want it to happen this way so you can say someone was trying to 'kill' the things in the Well so it could 'eat' their mantles, because you think those things have mantles and that was the plan.
[4:40 PM] -EG-: The mental gymnastics are only necessary because of what you want it to be, rather than what it was.
[4:40 PM] ZQKing: I think the plan is as stated
[4:40 PM] ZQKing: nuke the island, flatten the continental US, free whatever survives the banefire
[4:40 PM] ZQKing: cue apoclaypse
[4:41 PM] ZQKing: I refer back to this

[4:42 PM] -EG-: The banefire does not happen before the rock hits, it happens as a result of the rock hitting. Which we are told, twice, is November 1st. Thus the things there don't 'die' fully and are able to run loose and 'end' everything.
[4:42 PM] -EG-: The barges don't nuke the island the second they hit it, they still build up the full ritual off the ley line.
[4:42 PM] ZQKing: The banefire is the island's automatic failsafe if the well is opened by attack
[4:42 PM] ZQKing: as stated by bob
[4:42 PM] ZQKing: Imma grab that (ass)
[4:42 PM] -EG-: ...Bob's ass?
[4:43 PM] ZQKing: it could happen
[4:43 PM] -EG-: Do you.
[4:44 PM] ZQKing: Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy-flares that I had been sensing ever since I'd gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.

Text at the bottom read, NOVEMBER 1.

"By tomorrow," I said. "Super. But I still don't see what is wrong, Bob."

"Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe."

"FIRE," rumbled Demonreach.

"I figured that one out, thanks," I said. "But nothing has actually happened to the spells yet?"

"Nope," said Bob. "That tension that's building? It's . . . Well, think of it as cause and effect, only backward."
[4:45 PM] ZQKing: "What the island is experiencing now is the echo of the moment that burst of energy strikes it," Bob said. "Only instead of the echo happening after, it's happening first."

I stopped and thought. "You're telling me that the reason the island is about to blow up is . . . because it's about to blow up?"

Bob sighed. "Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they've figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren't attacking it in three dimensions. They're attacking in four. They're sending power through time as well as through space."

"So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"

"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."

"Uh . . ."

"Look, the rock they're throwing hits tomorrow," Bob said. "But you have to stop them from throwing it at whatever point they're standing when they throw it."

"Oh," I said, blinking. "I get that."

Bob turned to look at Demonreach. "Do you see what I have to work with here? I had to take that down to throwing a rock before it got through."

"HIS UNDERSTANDING IS LIMITED," Demonreach agreed.
[4:45 PM] ZQKing: Hope this settles it
[4:45 PM] derpatron: nope
[4:45 PM] derpatron: It's not a mantle
[4:46 PM] ZQKing: What
[4:46 PM] -EG-: Why should it, I only posted it twice.
[4:46 PM] raidem: "No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."
[4:46 PM] raidem: This means Bob doesn't know
[4:46 PM] ZQKing: I
[4:46 PM] ZQKing: What's your angle?
[4:46 PM] -EG-: He doesn't know when they throw it. He very much knows when it HITS.
[4:46 PM] -EG-: Because he says when it hits. Twice.
[4:47 PM] raidem: It hits when it goes scarlet.
[4:47 PM] ZQKing: it goes scarlet because it hits
[4:47 PM] ZQKing: order of events
[4:47 PM] raidem: Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design.
[4:47 PM] ZQKing: and the scarlet is just bob illustrating it for dummy dresden
[4:48 PM] raidem: Yes but that means scarlet isn't white screen which isn't november 1st.
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: ...What?
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: Okay so
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: Theoretically, if the boats were to hit the shore at say
[4:48 PM] derpatron: the colors, Duke
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: fuckin
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: 10pm
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: the spell goes off, and nothing seems to happen
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: the spell hits several hours later
[4:49 PM] raidem: the rock hit is the scarlet hitting Demonreach.
[4:49 PM] ZQKing: causing, in linear order, the "redness" which destabilizes the island and sets off the fire
[4:49 PM] ZQKing: and the fire goes off by early morning november 1st
[4:49 PM] raidem: Yes
[4:49 PM] raidem: so rock hit preceds banefire
[4:49 PM] raidem: rock hit precedes banefire
[4:50 PM] ZQKing: Yes, that was never in question
[4:50 PM] ZQKing: because the rock triggers the banefire by destabilizign the island
[4:50 PM] raidem: it is in question
[4:50 PM] ZQKing: How
[4:51 PM] raidem: rock hit isn't november 1st according to your unerring model
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: NO
[4:51 PM] raidem: defined by the white screen
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: IT'S LATE NIGHT OCTOBER 31ST
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: THE DAY PRECEDING NOVEMBER 1ST
[4:51 PM] raidem: exactly
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: THE DAY AFTER OCTOBER 31ST, HALLOWEEN, IS NOVEMBER 1ST
[4:51 PM] raidem: which EG argued was november 1st
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: THEREFORE
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: IF THE SPELL HITS LATE NIGHT OCTOBER 31ST
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: THE FIRE GOES OFF EARLY MORNING NOVEMBER 1ST
[4:51 PM] raidem: Keep arguing my case please
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: AS STATED IN BOB'S
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: fuckng
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: dfmkalsdfmsdfsfd
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: fsad'flsd'flflksad'lfk;sakdsadld
[4:52 PM] raidem: But EG said rock hit was november 1st
[4:52 PM] -EG-: Yeah. Because it was.
[4:52 PM] -EG-: Because bob said so.
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: Okay I agree with EG, I just had a brain fart
[4:52 PM] raidem: So which is it. But ZQ just contradicted you.
[4:52 PM] derpatron: jesus
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: yeah, the boats hit late night october 31st
[4:52 PM] derpatron: this is amazing
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: but by after midnight
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: the spell goes off
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: why is this a debate
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: i thoguht tthe bokkw as acleans
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: ads
[4:52 PM] derpatron: because eg has to be wrong
[4:52 PM] derpatron: that's why
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: I need some fuckin weed man this is giving my head hurt
[4:53 PM] raidem: I love it.
[4:53 PM] raidem: Got to make some tea
[4:53 PM] Vyor: raidem is a cuuuunt, news at 11
[4:53 PM] raidem: I'm an annoying shit.
[4:53 PM] -EG-: Not something to aspire towards.
[4:54 PM] derpatron: clearly it's a thing we should all strive for
[4:54 PM] derpatron: since you know
[4:54 PM] ZQKing: Take it from an annoying shit
[4:54 PM] derpatron: you have to be wrong
[4:54 PM] ZQKing: Track record states that if EG has a conradiction to your theory he's probably right
[4:54 PM] ZQKing: :o
[4:54 PM] derpatron: no u
[4:55 PM] derpatron: track record is 9.58 seconds
[5:07 PM] raidem: Ok. another tack.  How long do you think it would take for the barge ritual to take effect had teh barge landed?
[5:07 PM] raidem: In hours?
[5:08 PM] ZQKing: unknown.
[5:09 PM] raidem: So far I have argued.  Bob's illustration is a model.  The rock hit didn't land.  The rock thrown didn't happen either.  So, it wasn't some preordained event wherby the model is absolute though it is fairly accurate given Demonreach abilities.(edited)
[5:09 PM] raidem: Venture a guess.
[5:10 PM] raidem: After the barge landed how much time did HWWBefore need before the scarlet showed up on Demonreach.  You argued it wasn't instantaneous.  So when would it be.
[5:10 PM] raidem: I argued the barge landing occured on Haloween, as it did.
[5:10 PM] raidem: I argued that barge landing was near in time to the scarlet on the model.  You and EG have argued otherwise.
[5:11 PM] raidem: So, how long does it take.
[5:16 PM] raidem: It's a relevant question.
[5:17 PM] -EG-: Enough time that it occurs on November 1st. Bypassing the Halloween 'problem' and allowing the Well prisoners to be set free and end the world. As the book text tells us. Because again, the only reason you see a 'problem' is because you have latched onto the idea that there was this secret subplot to 'kill' everything in there, and eat their mantles. Is it ever mentioned all, most, or even ANY thing down there has a mantle? No. Does Vadderung ever tell Harry in their conversation about the island that, hey, you might also wanna watch out for the power being 'eaten' if the place does blow? No. Does it even make a whole bunch of sense that a spell that levels the upper half of the US is gonna then allow for anyone or anything to conceivably be left standing in order to actually take in that power as you say was going to be the case? No.

Does Bob explicitly have the 'rock'/spell going off the next day, November 1st? Yes. Twice. Once in big, bold letters. You have pretzel twisting conjecture in order to fit what you wanted it to be. The rest of us have the text to go by.

So, in summation for the final time, there is no problem with events as they were described or played out.
[5:18 PM] raidem: The island starts having problems prior to white screen, November 1st.
[5:19 PM] raidem: Problems occur during Haloween.
[5:19 PM] -EG-: Problems reach critical mass and consequences erupt November 1st. Again, all in the text.
[5:19 PM] raidem: You dodged the question EG.  You say "enough time that it occurs on november 1st." You are fitting pieces to fit your idea of what would happen.(edited)
[5:21 PM] -EG-: My idea of what happened, is what happened. I don't have to 'fit' anything because i'm not arguing against the text. There is nothing to dodge.
[5:22 PM] raidem: Now to answer the Question: The ritual would have enough time to be placed until some point prior to Demonreach's inner wards came down that Maeve and Lily put up.(edited)
[5:23 PM] raidem: You are dodging the 'by tomorrow' and using the hit tomorrow.
[5:24 PM] raidem: The text argues two different things on that count.  And it says, you have to stop it when it happens (which Bob admits he doesn't know).  Then to dumb it down futher goes off script and say tomorrow.  Also, he says echoes occurr prior to it hitting.(edited)
[5:26 PM] raidem: I got to eat dinner.  Will continue after supper.
[5:26 PM] -EG-: The only one who doesn't seem to understand what 'by tomorrow' means here is you. Because you keep twisting this into some sort of problematic statement. The energy reaches critical mass and the eruption occurs 'by tomorrow', November 1st. The 'rock' hits November 1st. He has to stop it when the spell is THROWN, but the throw still does not hit until the next day.
[5:26 PM] raidem: we are talking about the white screen
[5:27 PM] ZQKing: https://youtu.be/KYUMpgpLLuU
YouTube
raywilliamjohnsonre
NERD RAGE!!! Your Favorite Martian music video


[5:27 PM] -EG-: YOU are talking about the white screen.
[5:27 PM] raidem: white screen is november 1st.  rock hit is shown prior in the model as seen by scarlet power.(edited)
[5:28 PM] Llama: this has to be the stupidest conversation ive ever seen
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: yes raidem that is what heppend
[5:28 PM] raidem: thanks
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: thank you for clarifying that, in order
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: someone throws the spell
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: the spell travels through time
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: the spell hits
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: and the banefire goes off
[5:28 PM] raidem: I never said otherwise
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: then what the fuck is this argument
[5:29 PM] raidem: it is a precise point  about a point in time
[5:29 PM] ZQKing: Yes
[5:29 PM] ZQKing: Okay look, let me be real honest for a moment
[5:29 PM] ZQKing: if this argument fucking mattered, the book would probably say so.
[5:29 PM] raidem: true
[5:30 PM] ZQKing: then
[5:31 PM] -EG-: You're like this always, take responsibility for your own actions.
[5:31 PM] ZQKing:

[5:31 PM] ZQKing:

[5:32 PM] ZQKing:

[5:36 PM] derpatron: Y'all ppl need white god
[5:45 PM] Vyor: 's son
[5:47 PM] raidem: OK then...I take back what I said. I'm responsible for my own actions...
[5:48 PM] derpatron: This was the tide pod challenge of DF debates
[5:49 PM] darth_dresden: O_o  Lawd Jebus what did I walk into it.
[5:50 PM] derpatron: EG being wrong
[5:50 PM] derpatron: Lul
[5:51 PM] raidem: "So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"
"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."
[5:53 PM] raidem: If I say I'll eat dinner by tomorrow, what do you guys think that means?
[5:53 PM] raidem: Do I have to only eat dinner tomorrow?
[5:53 PM] raidem: Can I eat dinner in like 1 hour, because I'm hungry now.
[5:53 PM] derpatron: You're substantially unhealthy and shouldn't put off food intake for such long periods of time
[5:55 PM] raidem: And, if I have a model of something say a skyscraper.  And the top floor has an escape route out the window with no ladder.  But there is no ladder but the model shows it, should I go out the window?
[5:55 PM] raidem: Is the model unerring?
[5:56 PM] raidem: And if a screen is going white, and then  is white and has a date, can the date of it going white be on another date than the one affixed to the white screen?
[5:56 PM] derpatron: Are you trying to make a 9/11 joke with that one?
[5:56 PM] raidem: I think I should have used another example. No.
[5:56 PM] ZQKing:

[5:57 PM] raidem: I was actually using the DF example of LASH.(edited)
[5:57 PM] ZQKing:

[5:58 PM] derpatron: I see Ben Savage and Bill Cosby
[5:58 PM] derpatron: Fred savage?
[5:59 PM] ZQKing:

[6:31 PM] raidem: Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy-flares that I had been sensing ever since I'd gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.

Text at the bottom read, NOVEMBER 1.

"By tomorrow," I said. "Super. But I still don't see what is wrong, Bob."

"Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe."

"FIRE," rumbled Demonreach.

"I figured that one out, thanks," I said. "But nothing has actually happened to the spells yet?"

"Nope," said Bob. "That tension that's building? It's . . . Well, think of it as cause and effect, only backward."
[6:31 PM] raidem: : "What the island is experiencing now is the echo of the moment that burst of energy strikes it," Bob said. "Only instead of the echo happening after, it's happening first."

I stopped and thought. "You're telling me that the reason the island is about to blow up is . . . because it's about to blow up?"

Bob sighed. "Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they've figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren't attacking it in three dimensions. They're attacking in four. They're sending power through time as well as through space."

"So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"

"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."

"Uh . . ."
[6:32 PM] raidem: The above is the operative definition of the model.  Anything else Bob says departs from the model and he is dumbing it down creating further distance from the model.
[6:33 PM] raidem: "Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe." This occurs prior to November 1st, white screen which I argue aligns with the barges landing and the rituals going off (there may be some delayed start)
[6:35 PM] raidem: The white screen is November 1st but the spreading scarlet pulse was occurring prior to then and which Harry was feeling already as they were echoes of an impending event
[6:39 PM] raidem: So the attack hits as Bob says "Energy hits it" and unravels the whole containment spell and this aligns with the barge and rituals placed atop them.  The white screen becomes november 1st and Harry says by tomorrow. So that is Demonreach  hit before the banefire, failsafe activates.  The echoes occur prior to attack and Bob doesn't know when the attack happens.
[6:41 PM] ZQKing: These are all established facts, yes
[6:41 PM] raidem: Nowhere in the above quotes does it necessitate that Demonreach is hit with energy on November 1st by the Outsiders.
[6:41 PM] raidem: Not for EG
[6:41 PM] ZQKing: But the outsiders/Maeve were the ones orchestrating the attack
[6:42 PM] raidem: So?
[6:42 PM] raidem: I'm talking about the date not by whom.
[6:43 PM] raidem: EG and I are arguing about Demonreach being hit on Halloween (me) vs November 1st (him)
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: I thought you were for nov 1
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: also, let's be real here
[6:43 PM] raidem: NOPE
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: why the fuck
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: does it matter
[6:43 PM] raidem: Because EG was arguing the point
[6:43 PM] raidem: and he can't be wrong
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: Just
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: stick to time travel discussions, this was a real clusterfuck
[6:44 PM] raidem: It was a clusterfuck because we got entangled in a argument where we both didn't back down over a small detail.(edited)
[6:46 PM] raidem: I think the ritual on the barge platforms though must have encompassed time travel magic in the ritual.  That could explain in part why there was this attack through time and space.  Something was being fed via the ritual from another time/reality.(edited)
[7:01 PM] raidem: There is also the possibility that Demonreach was attacked in the 5 times that it was anchored it. Or at least in multiple times, and we just saw one such battle.  It really only matters however if we see a repeat event of teh attack on Demonreach in some time travel, alternate reality book.  Otherwise the time element may have to be solely explained by the ritual on the barges.(edited)
[7:03 PM] derpatron: Justin DuMorne is Arthur Langtry from the future and is the father of Donald Morgan
[7:03 PM] derpatron: 1v1 me irl if you disagree
[7:05 PM] derpatron: I'm actually Harry Dresden from an alternate universe where he's 6'1 and fat and has no magic abilities
[7:06 PM] derpatron: Molly is actually Toot-Toot from the future
[7:06 PM] derpatron: Who is Mab from the even more future
[7:07 PM] derpatron: Nemesis is Mother Winter because fuck you
[7:08 PM] derpatron: Prove me wrong EG
[7:08 PM] derpatron: :v
[7:09 PM] ZQKing: the attack was only in that one point
[7:09 PM] ZQKing: or else echos would've been felt all over the timeline
[7:09 PM] ZQKing: vedderung said so
[7:09 PM] derpatron: Oh and we're supposed to trust Santa Claus on this one?????
[7:10 PM] derpatron: Maybe he's the one who put it in Maeves head to do the deed
[7:10 PM] derpatron: Jealous of Harry's island etc etc
[7:14 PM] derpatron: Really the screen going to white was Bob playing some h-game and the scene was changing because senpai noticed him
[7:14 PM] raidem: good point ZQ
[7:15 PM] raidem: so it had to be just that one spot at least in this reality
[7:15 PM] derpatron: If I were gonna do time magic
[7:16 PM] raidem: it puts more emphasis that the ritual had the time component needed
[7:16 PM] derpatron: It would be hundreds of years in the future
[7:16 PM] derpatron: So no one would realize what's going on
[7:16 PM] raidem: I wish I had my copies of the book pdfs
[7:16 PM] derpatron: And just think it was some earthquakes for 30 decades
--- End quote ---


voc.

kazimmoinuddin:
I think that the bane fire would wound the immortals enough to allow them to be consumed by nemesis and their allies. Or at least be co opted by the enemy.

raidem:
(click to show/hide)
--- Quote ---[7:17 PM] raidem: Yeah, I think it was clear that EG was wrong on the 'rock' hitting on November 1st.
[7:18 PM] derpatron: God dammit
[7:26 PM] raidem: @-EG- EG “Meaning that the echoes caused by the temporal event are proportionately greater than the span of time that was bridged,” he said. “Had the attack been launched from a century ago, or hence, the echoes of it would have begun far, far in advance of the event—centuries ago. These echoes have appeared only within the past few days. I would guess, roughly, that the attack must originate only hours from the actual, real-time occurrence.” “Which is tomorrow,” I said. “So it’s happening sometime today or sometime tomorrow.” “Most likely not tomorrow,” Vadderung said. “Altering one’s past is more than mildly difficult.”(edited)
[7:27 PM] raidem: Vadderung just said "Most likely not tomorrow,"  "Altering one's past is more than mildly difficult."
[7:28 PM] raidem: This contradicts Bob and the argument suggesting November 1st.  This proves the model EG is basing his theory on as having an error per Vadderung.(edited)
[7:28 PM] derpatron: understand one thing
[7:28 PM] derpatron: when Odin says something is more than "mildly difficult" It's generally impossible for anything not holding demigod levels of Power
[7:29 PM] raidem: Agreed. Further supporting the position I hold.(edited)
[7:30 PM] derpatron: I don't see how it supports your position
[7:30 PM] raidem: "The attack must originate only hours from the actual, real-time occurrence."
[7:31 PM] raidem: EG argued the attack on Demonreach (when the rock hits) hits on November 1st.
[7:31 PM] raidem: I argued it hits on Halloween, coinciding with the barge.
[7:31 PM] derpatron: oh god we're still on this
[7:31 PM] raidem: Yes we are.
[7:31 PM] derpatron: the attack was happening on Halloween, yes
[7:32 PM] derpatron: but the only confirmation we get is that The End would absolutely happen by Nov 1
[7:32 PM] raidem: Yes, But he doesn't allow the 'by' in that phrase.  It has to be Nov 1.
[7:32 PM] derpatron: so while the attack was going on it could/would culminate in boom on Nov 1
[7:33 PM] derpatron: additionally we don't know what frame of time we are calling Nov 1
[7:33 PM] raidem: Vadderung just rejected that.
[7:33 PM] derpatron: is it on sunrise?
[7:33 PM] derpatron: or 12:00am
[7:33 PM] raidem: That is why I coined it cosmic halloween.
[7:33 PM] derpatron: can we just say you're both right and leave it the hell alone?
[7:33 PM] raidem: Nov 1st is end of cosmic halloween.
[7:33 PM] derpatron: because god dammit I'm gonna go back in time and beat the shit out of my grandfather, otherwise
[7:34 PM] derpatron: what the hell is cosmic halloween
[7:34 PM] raidem: Can we look at Vadderung's words that rejected 'tomorrow' that Bob just suggested
[7:34 PM] derpatron: that doesn't confirm or deny that halloween ends at midnight 11/1 or sunrise 11/1
[7:34 PM] raidem: It just means the entirety of the time the conjunction exists, not strictly limited in the calendar sense
[7:35 PM] raidem: end of halloween was defined as when the first natural songbird crows(edited)
[7:36 PM] raidem: but in any event, the end of 'cosmic' halloween is what applies as earth has multiple time zones, etc as it relates to immortality, mortality(edited)
[7:36 PM] derpatron: ok
[7:36 PM] derpatron: here
[7:36 PM] ZQKing: Just shut the fuck up plx
[7:36 PM] ZQKing: I don't think anyone else really cares
[7:36 PM] derpatron: dudes start some shit on 10/31
[7:37 PM] derpatron: it begins then, the finishing event causes temporal echoes
[7:37 PM] derpatron: when the event finishes
[7:37 PM] derpatron: it's 11/1
[7:37 PM] derpatron: but it STARTS on 10/31
[7:37 PM] derpatron: there you're both right
[7:37 PM] derpatron: MOVING THE FUCK ON
[7:38 PM] derpatron: Thomas Raith is really 4 svartalves in a pantsuit
[7:39 PM] raidem: I'll go back to Amber series, for now.(edited)
[7:40 PM] raidem: And I finally got Kindle app so now I got access to copyable pdf's next time I get into a debate.(edited)
[9:23 PM] raidem: The rest of the night passed without anyone getting killed. I sat down with my back against the outside wall of the cottage, to keep an eye on my “guests” down the hill, but when I blinked a few seconds later, my eyes stuck shut, and then didn’t open again until I heard, distantly, a bird twittering. Footsteps came crunching up the hill, and I opened my eyes to see Kringle approaching.
[9:24 PM] raidem: Just another clip to go with previous discussion.
[9:31 PM] raidem: “After tonight, Mab will no longer be a concern to anyone.”
[10:32 PM] raidem: I posted this topic to the forum.  They suggested that Halloween takes place partly on Nov 1st.  Since I included the 'cosmic' Halloween argument vs calendar argument, this really doesn't solve it but at least allows the rock hit to both on Halloween and on 11/1. Though it seems EG still has argued it wouldn't be on 'cosmic' Halloween.(edited)
[10:56 PM] raidem: Alright, I'm going to clean up some of my arguments. Per Vadderung, the attack is 'today.' One 'must originate only hours from the actual, real-time occurrence'.  So I've argued that 'cosmic' Halloween can exist while the calendar is 11/1 .  As such, the banefire event with text 11/1 may take place on Halloween. It could have also taken place on non-Halloween 11/1 as EG has argued.  It is a point that can be argued either way.  Halloween straddles in this example both 10/31 and 11/1 so we don't know exactly when the banefire would be used.  I've argued, as many are aware, that it would be when Demonreach would have maximal effect on Halloween.(edited)
[11:09 PM] raidem: I think I feel satisfied now.
January 23, 2018
[1:22 AM] Godslayer: damn, what did I miss?
[1:32 AM] Azmuel: @raidem the island could be destroyed anytime. Immortals could be killed on all hallows eve, which means dusk to dawn
[1:38 AM] Godslayer: My big thing with the attack on Demonreach is it felt very all of nothing. Jim never gave us the impression that there would be time to stop the outsiders if they hit the beach. Everything in those chapters indicated to us that if the barges hit the beach, it was game over right then and there.
[1:42 AM] Azmuel: Yes, and?
[1:48 AM] Godslayer: There was an argument that the barges would hit the beach, then wait until morning for the actrual rite to go off
[2:53 AM] Azmuel: why, the spell was ready for the instant they hit the beach
[4:54 AM] Godslayer: that's my view as well
[11:38 AM] raidem: but not EG's.  In his defense, there was a delayed action though too.  That is confirmed.  However, Vadderung says it would be a few hours in relation to the 'throw' and Vadderung contradicts Bob and says 'most likely not tomorrow' implying  it would be 'today' as in 10/31 or Halloween. So either both 'rock throw' and 'rock hit' is today. Or one is today, and another is tomorrow. But there can only be a few hours between them, and most likely given this they both still occur on Halloween.  I mean Halloween doesn't end until Harry wakes up the morning after when the inner wards come down and he can depart the island.  He notes waking up to a birdsong.  So I'd say the barges landing would be the rock throw allowing those throwing the timebomb a connection to the island.  Then, the rock hit would come a few hours later resulting in final flare immediately prior to banefire event.  The final flare is when the dissonance(caused by the barges) reaches the middle of the island.  I think this is how it goes.(edited)
[11:41 AM] raidem: I disagree that the Prison could be destroyed anytime.  I think that Demonreach has to be attacked on Halloween.  It likely is an immortal Prison to imprison immortals.  If the prison could be destroyed anytime, then it need not be attacked on Halloween.  Demonreach most likely needed a Warden to activate the prison too, otherwise the Outsiders could have attacked it any time it didn't have a Warden.  Both Sharkface and Maeve attempted to coopt Harry so he may have played a part on the attack or sabotage of Demonreach.(edited)
[12:02 PM] raidem: I'm wondering what was going in the fight above when Mab, Harry, and allies were locked up in the inner wards at Demonreach.  When I say 'fight above' I mean the fight going on in another point in time.  Say, Vadderung gets pushed to it, or travels to it, and participates in eradicating this final ritual site that completes the attack on Demonreach in 4 dimensions.  We do see Vadderung sword chipped into and signs of him fighting.(edited)
[12:03 PM] ZQKing: there's no proof of such a fight, evidence points to him simply being bumped a few hours ahead to the next morning
[12:03 PM] ZQKing: as ERlking said, VKRingle would meet them "farther down the shore" after helping break through the time spell
[12:04 PM] raidem: We do see Vadderung sword chipped into and signs of him fighting.(edited)
[12:04 PM] ZQKing: Then maybe he reappeared during the night
[12:04 PM] raidem: We don't exactly know when he reappeared.
[12:04 PM] ZQKing: after the queens died (long live the queens) but before all the outsiders left
[12:04 PM] ZQKing: maybe he showed up again after harry entered the circle of starlight and helped herne fuck up outsiders until the sun rose
[12:05 PM] raidem: That is what I'm also saying.
[12:05 PM] ZQKing: Sharkface was leading them but liekly when sharky got fucked the outsiders simply reverted to extradimensional pihranas
[12:05 PM] raidem: There are two options. You just listed one.
[12:05 PM] raidem: The other is the 4dimensional attack.
[12:06 PM] ZQKing: Which we have no proof of but admittedly would be cool
[12:06 PM] ZQKing: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[12:06 PM] ZQKing: THere's always more going on that Harry knows
[12:06 PM] raidem: We do know they attacked in 4D per Bob in model on Demonreach.
[12:06 PM] raidem: The only way it becomes relevant is Harry comes across it in the time travel book.
[12:07 PM] raidem: What all does he revisit then? Cold Days, Changes, Proven Guilty, Grave Peril
[12:09 PM] raidem: He has to learn that he makes a different choice in Grave Peril.
[12:09 PM] raidem: We believe that Proven Guilty needs to be explained, particularly the battle at Arctis Tor.
[12:10 PM] raidem: If there is another battle taking place at a ritual site for the 4D attack, that site needs to get destroyed.  Does Harry need to participate in it?
[12:11 PM] raidem: Will Harry have to relive the events at the end of Changes, sacrificing Susan to  defeat the Reds.
[12:13 PM] raidem: Next, for my theories, will Harry revisit 1000+ years ago when the last Queens died and past mantles to our Mab and Titania.  Also, Who all accompanies Harry on this time travel trip?
[12:13 PM] raidem: What do you guys think the time travel book will look like.
[12:14 PM] ZQKing: I think it's going to be even more of a reflection book than ghost story
[12:18 PM] raidem: I'll state another reason why Harry or any mortal, but particularly a Starborn, needed to be in charge of the Wild Hunt and giving orders.(edited)
[12:19 PM] raidem: It gives more permanence to the event in 'history,' thereby preventing any time travel plot to undo it.  It is backed by a mortal's free will choice.  Starborn has greater weight than others.(edited)
[12:20 PM] ZQKing: Not a bad thought
[12:20 PM] ZQKing: put on top of the fact starborns naturally have more power over outsiders, or some extra foothold
[12:21 PM] raidem: Erlking and Kringle were waiting for him to give orders on the time spell against the Wild Hunt.  By waiting on Harry's order and free willed choice, it backed up Kringles action with free will/starborn choice.(edited)
[12:21 PM] ZQKing: I also suspect that a starborn leading the hunt gives them some sort of edge against outsidfers
[12:22 PM] ZQKing: something about free will ye
[12:22 PM] raidem: Starborn does give edge against Outsiders.(edited)
[12:25 PM] raidem: Hey, I'm wondering if a Starborn -Harry (not necessarily -Harry from Mirror Mirror but something like him) TT's into past and leads to killing off the past Queens.  He had been compromised by Nemesis and attempted to change things.  This is why Mab and Titania are nervous about Harry.  And, why Mab keeps her enemies (implying Harry is her enemy) close.  Our Mab has already seen a enemy Harry in action in events that led to killing off prior Mab/Titania.(edited)

--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---I think Maeve's plan was to trigger the Banefire on Nov. 1st, but the Trans-Dimensional Nature of Demonreach required her to "toss the rock" from Oct.31. 
--- End quote ---
Even if this is the plan, you have to prove that Nov 1st when the banefire is triggered isn't Halloween (cosmic Halloween).  (Bob tells Harry he has until the first natural birdsong in the morning of 11/1 which signals the end of Halloween.)  Otherwise, the date doesn't matter. It's Halloween in both cases.

We have to ask ourself.  Assuming Bob's model is correct, The Banefire will go off 'by tomorrow' November 1st.  Will the banefire go off on the Halloween part of Nov 1st or the nonHalloween part of Nov 1st.  It decides the issue of whether the Prisoners can be released as immortals vs. mortals.  If they are mortals, then the banefire kills them and whatever power/mantles they have go up for grabs.  If they are released as immortals, the banefire hits them hard but survive in some state to wreak havoc.

groinkick:

--- Quote from: raidem on January 23, 2018, 07:29:24 PM --- (click to show/hide)Even if this is the plan, you have to prove that Nov 1st when the banefire is triggered isn't Halloween (cosmic Halloween).  (Bob tells Harry he has until the first natural birdsong in the morning of 11/1 which signals the end of Halloween.)  Otherwise, the date doesn't matter. It's Halloween in both cases.

We have to ask ourself.  Assuming Bob's model is correct, The Banefire will go off 'by tomorrow' November 1st.  Will the banefire go off on the Halloween part of Nov 1st or the nonHalloween part of Nov 1st.  It decides the issue of whether the Prisoners can be released as immortals vs. mortals.  If they are mortals, then the banefire kills them and whatever power/mantles they have go up for grabs.  If they are released as immortals, the banefire hits them hard but survive in some state to wreak havoc.

--- End quote ---

Bob knows that Halloween is a time that can kill Immortals...  There may be other ways...  Bane fire may be one of those ways.  The time of year might not matter if a Bane fire self destruct goes off.

Maeve probably chose that time because she knew that Mab would be vulnerable on that day to take her Mantle....  Nemesis may have fooled her into setting off the self destruct by leaving that little part out when she was influenced into thinking she should destroy the island.

raidem:

--- Quote ---Bob knows that Halloween is a time that can kill Immortals...  There may be other ways...  Bane fire may be one of those ways.  The time of year might not matter if a Bane fire self destruct goes off.
--- End quote ---

I've thought of it too.  Still, if that is the case then it would be an operative conjunction similar to Halloween. So the argument between EG and myself would still largely be in effect.  There were many issues in play with him.  Some being my statement that many of the beings imprisoned within Demonreach had mantles/powers that could pass/consumed by others upon them dying.  He preferred a case in which they walked free not killed which is why he was insistent upon a nonHalloween Nov 1st event.  If Banefire does the same thing as Halloween, it renders his intended argument mute.


--- Quote ---Maeve probably chose that time because she knew that Mab would be vulnerable on that day to take her Mantle....  Nemesis may have fooled her into setting off the self destruct by leaving that little part out when she was influenced into thinking she should destroy the island.

--- End quote ---
I agree, but I think it possible Maeve knew it wouldn't or unlikely to work and therefore it would be a standoff between herself and her mom just like what happened with some flexibility built in.  To tie this into my Murphy/Mab theory, having both Mab and Murphy (or Molly per Ms. Duck) there on the island when it goes off, or Mab and Molly if you prefer Ms. Duck's theory, would make an entire history vulnerable whereby TTMurphy, TTHarry and allies never go back into the past to assist Murphy in assuming the Lady mantle... It would have unmade Maeve, Sarissa and so much of my timeline rendering our reality a complete wreck as far back as 1000+ years ago.  Truly when Sharkface (HWWBefore) says Mab would cease to be a problem, he wasn't kidding according to my or Ms. Duck's theory.


--- Quote --- “My boss might not go along with this plan,” I said. “After tonight, Mab will no longer be a concern to anyone.”
--- End quote ---
I've wondered before about trying to undo a TT pretzel like I've suggested.  I don't think it is as simple as taking out Murphy.  There has to be more to it than just that.  And, I think that situation on Demonreach would/could qualify.

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