The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Denarian Dresden

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DonBugen:

--- Quote ---The party about God hardening Pharaoh's heart is straight out of the real Bible. Exodus 7:3-4 says He would do it. Exodus 9:12 says he did it. Strictly in the context of the Dresdenverse, and not speaking about Christian theology in the real world at all, it is kind of a dick move.
--- End quote ---
I'm well aware that it's in the Bible of this world, maGoh12; I was simply trying to point out that it might be one of the things that are different between TWG of the Dresden Files and the Christian God that real life people believe in.  That's why I referred to the "Dresden Bible" - the Bible within the Dresdenverse.

There's already some evidence that these things don't match up.  Thomas paraphrases it in Blood Rites:

--- Quote ---"You can have everything in the world, but if you don't have love, none of it means crap," he said promptly. "Love is patient. Love is kind. Love always forgives, trusts, supports, and endures. Love never fails. When every star in the heavens grows cold, and when silence lies once more on the face of the deep, three things will endure: faith, hope, and love."
--- End quote ---
That bolded part is nowhere within the actual Bible; it talks about prophecies and tongues and wisdom ceasing, but not about apocalypse.  So either the Dresdenverse's Bible has a reference to Empty Night right in one of its most poetic passages, or Thomas somehow mis-remembered something that his father drilled into all of their children.

And my plain point was that compromising mortal choice just is completely opposite of what TWG in the Dresden Files stands for.  So either the Bibles are different, or it's like Hades and Persephone, in which it's all just a bunch of propoganda.  Arguments against TWG's "hardening of Pharaoh's heart" are out of character and just don't hold weight in that reality; they only serve if you're trying to poke at real-world religion.  Which is, of course, against the rules.

Arjan:
A clear difference in tone is the apocalypse. It looks like the good guys in the Dresden verse do want to stop it from happening. Nicodemus however wants it.  In real life Christianity it is, for some types of Christians at least, something to look forward to.

It looks like we have some anti-theists here, an understandable position because atheism is somewhat difficult in the Dresden verse but the same problems with good and evil still apply.

(click to show/hide)The solution to the problem of evil is simple though. God did not create men in his own image, He created cat in his own image. Reflect on this, it explains all.
The problem however is that by telling how evil the white god is you only strengthen his foothold on this earth!

Luckily there is a plan. There is even a vast conspiracy supporting anti-theism in the Dresden verse!


* Deny the existence of magic and all supernatural entities.
* If they are too well entrenched just tell they don't interfere anyway, free will is a good excuse.
* Destroy all knowledge of magic and all supernatural entities. Do not pass that knowledge to your children.
* Do not give them your faith.
It seems to work. There is a lot less supernatural stuff going on than say 1000 years ago. But there is still a lot to do. The venatori might contact you.

Snark Knight:

--- Quote from: Arjan on September 09, 2017, 04:17:07 PM ---Punishing the father by killing his son is morally wrong whatever the father did but I do not think the Uriel who killed the firstborn is the same as the Uriel who walks around now just like the Odin who demanded human sacrifices is not the same one as he who talked with Harry.
They change because the stories about them change.

--- End quote ---

Nope - at least, as far as Uriel's case.  By WOJ, the reason angels are not susceptible to Nemesis is that their nature is absolute. They're not subject to change such as that based on drift in belief the way pagan gods and 'worshipped' Fae (i.e. those in a position like Kringle who mortals believe in, even if not explicitly religious figures).



--- Quote from: Anubissama on September 10, 2017, 08:21:23 AM ---And I fully admit if it ever turns out that Nicodemus is doing this just to get personal power I'll admit he is E evil, but from all the hints we have so far it seems more than likely that Nicodemus has an end game goal that fights the Outsiders. Which we also use to justify all that Mab does, so again they are at worst equal.

--- End quote ---

Oh, power is definitely a means to an end for Nic as well. But the difference between him and Mab is that keeping the Outsiders Out is Mab's overall purpose. I'm confident Nic shares that as an objective, but it's not like if someone were able to use a WMD to kill everything beyond the Gates, does anyone really think he's just going to say "mission accomplished" and retire to take up gardening? He's still going to have his 'saint of hell' game plan to act out.

Anubissama:

--- Quote from: Snark Knight on September 11, 2017, 07:26:32 PM ---Oh, power is definitely a means to an end for Nic as well. But the difference between him and Mab is that keeping the Outsiders Out is Mab's overall purpose. I'm confident Nic shares that as an objective, but it's not like if someone were able to use a WMD to kill everything beyond the Gates, does anyone really think he's just going to say "mission accomplished" and retire to take up gardening? He's still going to have his 'saint of hell' game plan to act out.

--- End quote ---

Well no, but that goes back to the problem I already mentioned. We only know the victor's version of events. Maybe the Fallen are a bunch of ungrateful brats who spit in the face of a loving father, or maybe they are a group of freedom fighters who fought bravely against a tyrannical ruler to free their brothers and grant them free will and a right to choose their lives and destiny.

Both versions are possible. And if being a TWG loyal Angel means no freedom, no will of your own, no self-agency. Who can blame them for staging a rebellion? Maybe Nic wants to become a Saint of Hell and topple TWG because it is the better option than the totalitarian regime of Heaven we have now.

wardenferry419:
Based on their actions within the text, I am leaning towards ungrateful brats over freedom fighters. In reality, those that think they can do a better job than those in charge often do not know what the job requires. I consider Heaven as not a regime but a reward for making the right choices.

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