The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Denarian Dresden
Con:
Okay so we've got an expanded answer on what would've happened if Dresden had taken up Lasciels coin in Changes, instead of Mab or Kemmler's Darkhallow. I personally think he should have gone with Lasciel as a better choice than Mab.
First there's this WOJ from a Reddit AMA last year.
--- Quote from: jim butcher ---Scanning back on it, if the Denarians had been involved, Harry would probably have had to lean more toward Lasciel as his get-out-of-paralysis-free card, and Nicodemus as his new best frenemy rather than Mab, in order to make the whole thing work out. He would have instantly come into conflict with Sanya, as well, over the possession of the Swords, and maybe with Murphy as well. Molly would have had to make a really horrible choice at that point, and probably would have walked out of it even more guilty and more ready to destroy herself after Harry's shooting. She probably would have wound up a Denarian herself.
Wow, that's a dark story. Who would come up with something like that? What's wrong with you?
--- End quote ---
Now here's me transcribing what Jim has said recently in the Dragon Con vide with thanks to Priscille for recording it. Looking forward to the fan video of Dresden vs Vampires!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQDTvMv1otI
--- Quote from: jim butcher dragon con 2017 38-41 minutes in ---He chose Mab as the most predictable evil not the least evil but the most reliable one
"Had he gone with Lasciel essentially she would have been his black magic tutor, Bob would've had a huge crush she would've been around him all the time it would've been her keeping him alive in the next book, although it would've been a slightly different book and then he would've been dealing with Nicodemus as a frenemies, on a consistancy basis he still had to deal with them as frenemies in Skin Game anyway so.
It would've been much different he would've had much different temptations Lasciel would've been trying to isolate him from his friends, actively isolating him unlike Mab whose waiting on entropy doing the job for her. It would've been a much harsher story but a lot more sex too.. sales would've been fine.
--- End quote ---
My reasoning for wanting Lasciel is because I enjoyed her character through the books she appeared with in fact they were my favourite things about the books she appeared in. Her conversations with Harry were great and inticing, and she really was useful as resevoir of information and recording.
I also find Lasciel to be a much more interesting character and characterisation than Mab.
Also I feel like Jim knows more about Angelic Folklore than Faery Folklore, and I'm very much interested on his characterisations of Angelic types, despite being an Atheist myself. Getting an Atheist interested in books revolving around God even fictional portrayals of them isn't easy.
I also would've loved to find more about the various Denarians both as a whole and as individuals and finally learn a few more names to add to the compendium.
Finally we have these series of hints in which Lash may make a comback. She definitely would've featured more prominently in a series featuring Lasciel.
--- Quote from: Jim Butcher ---What roll will Lasciel play in future books?
That's going to be another one of those where I go "Hahaha, I know and you don't" because, you know, it's the whole, I want to provide for my family thing. Were're not done with Lasciel. We might not even be totally done with Lash, but we will have to see how that goes.
2009 Chicago signing:
Q: Will we see Lash or Lasciel again?
A: Lasciel’s story is not over. And keep in mind what’s said about ‘a woman scorned.’ Also keep in mind that Lasciel is NOT Lash; Lasciel did not reabsorb the entity that Harry actually changed. (Yes, he use those words “that Harry actually changed.”)
2009 Independence signing
Q: Was the voice in Harry’s head at the end of White Night (when he was playing guitar) a sign that Lash is still there?
A: Not really. But Lash’s story isn’t done.
2008 Comic-Con Q&A: @ about 6:11
Q: Does Lasciel's shadow get to heaven because she redeemed herself?
A: The answer to that is so much more complicated than is easy to give, especially without giving out extra story and ruining the fun. No. Lasciel's spirit didn't go to heaven. And now, (sing song) I'm not gona tell you. *mutters about heroin for writers* But it will come out, don't worry the story will be there.
--- End quote ---
So yes personally I'd have been interested to see how things would've turned out had Harry gone down this route.
RobReece:
I'll begin with one caveat... you stated that you enjoyed Harry's interactions with Lasciel in the books, those were not Lasciel, those were her shadow that became Lash. He's had one interaction with Lasciel, and that was in the Vault in SG. At least to me, she came across a LOT more arrogant than her shadow ever did.
secondly, I don't think we'll see Lash again, her story might go on, through her daughter, but I think that she's gone for good.
Mira:
I don't think it would have turned out well at all if Harry had gone with the coin...We need look no further than what happened with Hannah Asher... As it was if you will remember Harry began to have anger management problems under the influence of the shadow of Lasciel, and he wasn't aware of how far it had gotten until Murphy sat down and had a talk with him. Yes, Harry got a grip, he also had the advantage of having inadvertently soul gazing a Denarian and found out what a horror it was, it was one factor in his resistance to the influence... But no, Harry as a Denarian wouldn't be a good thing..
wardenferry419:
--- Quote from: RobReece on September 07, 2017, 07:25:45 PM ---I'll begin with one caveat... you stated that you enjoyed Harry's interactions with Lasciel in the books, those were not Lasciel, those were her shadow that became Lash. He's had one interaction with Lasciel, and that was in the Vault in SG. At least to me, she came across a LOT more arrogant than her shadow ever did.
secondly, I don't think we'll see Lash again, her story might go on, through her daughter, but I think that she's gone for good.
--- End quote ---
I agree. Lash is not Lasciel. Lash is the coy and inticing seductress to Lasciel's brutal and dominating mistress.
DonBugen:
But Lasciel was always the temptress - that's what (Bob?) said from the beginning. And while Lash was an impression made on a mutable material and able to change, I would imagine that when we saw her in the beginning she was still mostly herself.
The difference between how we see her for the first time in Dead Beat versus Skin Game, I imagine, probably has more to do with the difference between the face she gives to the person she's seducing, compared to her being completely unmasked and filled with rage.
Mab is a great frenemy - it's pretty darn obvious when she's doing something perfectly awful, and Harry's caveman instincts are pretty easy to tell from his normal train of thought. With Lasciel in his head, the line would be grayed far more, and I think that Harry wouldn't be quite where he's at right now.
Ultimately, though, I don't think that I'd be happy with a Denarian Harry. This is going to be really controversial, but I felt like the Lash storyline ended really prematurely. I never felt like Lash herself was changing, and I felt like Harry kept creeping closer and closer to taking the coin. I mean, he has Lash possess his freaking tongue to talk several dead languages in front of allies. How more comfortable can you get? But then, Lash is suddenly all, "No one's ever lasted this long, clearly I'll never seduce you into taking the coin!" and Harry's all "Yeah, but you could go have a life of your own, why not?" Completely out of nowhere right before the final act of White Night.
The scene with Lash talking about the church and reminiscing about Heaven was beautiful, though.
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