The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Denarian Dresden
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on September 11, 2017, 07:26:32 PM ---Nope - at least, as far as Uriel's case. By WOJ, the reason angels are not susceptible to Nemesis is that their nature is absolute. They're not subject to change such as that based on drift in belief the way pagan gods and 'worshipped' Fae (i.e. those in a position like Kringle who mortals believe in, even if not explicitly religious figures).
--- End quote ---
Never saw that one but I remember one about the white god as a mantle and for all we know it had changed hands already.
And another one about how they express themselves on earth that changes even if they themselves don't. The drift in belief about the angels and the white god is a historical fact so I assume it is so in the dresdenverse as well.
dspringer1:
--- Quote ---Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive
--- End quote ---
You get a considerable degree of winter power, immunities and weaknesses, tied to the position. You do get temptation, but it is impersonal as opposed to tailored to your psychology. Also, Dresden bargained for aid. That was the full aid of the lea, probably secured the aid of Odin (or at least not blocked the aid of Odin) plus some clear implications that he got additional winter power during the battle with the Red court (ie - mid battle boosts in strength). And you get a iron clad bargain which you can rely upon, but not necessarily trust.
Finally, the white council would accept the winter knight, but not a denarian.
--- Quote ---Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organization dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher
--- End quote ---
Yes and no.
* Harry Already had soulfire from Uriel. If he accepted the coin, then he would have lose that to get hellfire. Maybe a net gain in destruction, but not really clear especially as soulfire is particularly effective vs vampires.
* You can argue that he would gain the aid of Nik and other denarians in the battle - but lose the aid of the holy knights and Lea. Again, not sure that is a net gain.
* Going full Denarian will certainly give him more physical power, ability to recover from injuries. But it is not clear that this power would be substantially stronger than the winter knight powers without ceding control completely to a Fallen.
* And the temptation aspects of the coin would be FAR more dangerous than anything the winter mantle provides. The coin's temptation would be directed by an intelligence that specializes in manipulation, has been studying people for tens of thousands of years. Further more, relying on the coin gives the coin more power over the host. The only way to prevent this is to become something that the coin supports - another Nik. As that is completely contrary to Dresden's goals, I cannot see this as an acceptable scenario. Also keep in mind that Harry had already freed himself once from the coin. Lashiel would not be forgiving and would redouble her efforts. And unlike the shadow of lash, Dresden cannot change Lashiel's nature.
* The coin would be an active threat to Harry's daughter and friends. It would want to corrupt them too - while Mab at the end of the day does not care about Harry's acquaintances unless they interfere with her goals.
* Your argument obviously implied that Harry could just give up the coin after the battle was over --- after all he already showed he can do it. But I suspect that the Fallen are well aware of this and would take steps to prevent it -- or withhold the aid Harry would need form other Fallen. At the very least, Harry would have to swear by his magic to not do so for some "reasonable" time like 3 years. By that time, he would be lost.
dspringer1:
Here is a question - will the Dark Harry in mirror mirror be a true denarian or a half or powered by something else
I am pretty sure myself that the coin is the next obvious power source for a dark harry. But I am not sure if this Dark Harry accepted the coin fully (ie - Lashiel) as opposed to coming to a working relationship with Lash that allowed him a lot of the benefits without taking up the coin.
This might be the way to get Lash back into the story line even though Lash in the primary arc has died/moved on/been transformed.
Kindler:
Consider that Maggie would be a new point of leverage for the Denarians, including Lasciel. Imagine what a Fallen temptress could do with that knowledge if she's got control over him. Maggie could have ended up twisted in all sorts of unfortunate and deplorable ways. She still could, but I'd judge that the odds are lower with the Winter Knight mantle, which is guided by base instinct (like "Protect the offspring.") He might not set the best example of stability, but, at the very least, he'll want to keep Maggie as far away from Winter as possible, and there's a lower chance of her following in his exact footsteps.
It's also doubtful that his memory gambit with his suicide would have worked with a Coin in his possession and another entity in his head—though I guess he might not have had a Fallen convincing him to do it in the first place if he was taking up a coin, so that might be moot. In fact, Molly would not have gone off the deep end, and with Harry still around, Lea wouldn't have shaped her to be the Winter Lady, which might be the worst thing about it, assuming Maeve still offs Lily.
And what about Corpsetaker? If he wasn't a ghost (or wraith or whatever you want to call it), it's pretty doubtful he would've learned about the Darkhallow in time.
Hmm. Mirror, Mirror might be more fun than I was thinking.
DonBugen:
Anubissama, I hear you, I really do. But there’s a few things that I want to mention.
1. Fighting the outsiders and wanting them out of our reality isn’t really a morally upright or morally evil thing; it’s just simply survival. Per Word of Jim (and I don’t have the exact reference) this is a battle in which both God and Satan would be on the same side. Pretty much, if you live in the Dresdenverse, and you know about the Outsiders, and you’re not so delusional as to think that you can control *them*, you’re against them.
2. Jim’s stated in one of his talks on writing that the key to making a really good villain is to remember that in his mind, he’s the hero of his own story. This is something that people often forget: most people, regardless of how upright or twisted they are, generally live their lives doing what they feel is right in their own eyes. Few people wake up and just think, “You know what? I’m going to be a complete monster today.”
To the Fallen, I’m pretty sure it did seem like some sort of act of liberation against a brutal tyrant. And that the Knights and those who serve TWG are nothing more than a vicious military police focused on bringing them to knee in submission. That does not mean that this position is correct, but it means that they've justified their actions and motives. An emotional abuser may lie and manipulate and stalk not because they hate the person, but because they love the person and can't live without them. A freedom fighter may strike a blow against the heart of the Empire that's choking out their way of life, 100% certain that they're doing the right thing, and we remember them as terrorists who hijacked a plane full of innocent civilians to kill thousands more. Feeling that you're in the right does not make you objectively good. Which brings me to my third and final point
3. The end rarely justifies the means. One of the prevailing themes of the Dresden Files is that there’s always a way out; always a choice to be made in which one can still save the day without turning into a monster. If you’ve gone down the left-hand path to the point in which you’re slaughtering innocents without a second thought, it’s long past time to consider that possibly you’re not the hero that you thought that you were. That’s so central to Harry’s struggle against his internal darkness, and therefore central to the Dresden Files itself, that I honestly feel that if you disagree with that you’re probably reading the wrong book.
Good intentions are nice and all, but it’s what a person does that really indicates who they are. You can fairly judge the type of men that the Knights are from the work that they do. And, I believe, you can fairly judge Mab and Nicodemus based off of that as well.
Long story short: If Nicodemus’ solution to stopping the Outsiders from destroying the world is to turn it into a nightmarish hellscape full of death, ruin, and destruction, then I’m not sure that he really saved the world from destruction at all.
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