The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Denarian Dresden
Arjan:
The morality of the white god is not a clear thing in the Dresden verse but if he promotes free will and offers us the choice between good and evil he is both.
But the knights of the cross are not the white god, they are his PR department. They make him look good.
The fallen are designed as their counterparts. They are as close to absolute evil as Michael is to absolute good. It defines their purpose. They are there to give you that other choice.
Both Uriel and the fallen are after your soul. Maybe one should consider other options. Call Odin if drinking and fighting are your thing,
DonBugen:
--- Quote from: Anubissama ---Apparently, you are quite okay with calling Mab a "predictable evil" or a lesser evil while her actions include things like: torturing people into insanity for decades, killing sentient feeling beings on the spot for no good reason, abducting babies and turning them into child soldiers. You accept all this because of her purpose fighting Outsiders.
--- End quote ---
So, these are Mab's 'evil' qualities? Her epic level of torture for a traitor who nearly destroyed the balance of the world forever (and arguably could have killed it), murder, and her drafting of young fae to grow up to be soldiers? I mean, she's not a saint or anything - but the Denarians, less evil than Mab?
Do you remember what Nicodemus' plans were in Death Masks? To take an absolutely horrific plague that killed everyone that caught it in horrible, twisted, torturous ways, and to go to O'Hare Airport and spread it across the nation, and to the rest of the world. To basically have a worldwide pandemic, killing billions in excruciatingly painful, torturous ways, to kickstart the apocalypse. And that was just one of their many twisted plans that they've done through the millenia.
You could certainly argue that his plans in Small Favor weren't so horrible, but that's only because Nicodemus doesn't go out and state what he wants to do with Ivy. It's clear what he can do with Ivy; like start a nuclear holocaust. Or bring some Old Ones back into existence. Granted, the second one isn't probably likely, but the first one is directly in line with his original goals.
--- Quote from: Anubissama ---As far as we know Nic is also against the Outsiders, he seemed genuinely outraged and upset about the fact that a Denari might be nemfected. And just saying I don't believe him isn't argument enough. The whole aquarium scene implies heavily that Nic is aware of the Outsider threat and works against it, be it by cruel means but it seems to be his goal.
--- End quote ---
Well, yes, the Aquarium scene does pretty much state that he's aware of Nemesis and that he works against it. But that's far from saying that Nicodemus' ultimate goal is to stop the Outsiders. He never goes so far. All he really demonstrates is that he recognizes them as another power, similar to the Red Court at the time, which he is shocked and infuriated to learn has infiltrated his ranks.
--- Quote from: Anubissama ---Furthermore, you can't say "because they oppose the White God they are E evil'. Remember in the Dresdenverse the genocide of the Firstborn of Egypt is a real historical event. So the "good" guys are not above killing children and babies to make a political statement. As such the Angel side doesn't hold the morally superior position any longer, and just being against them doesn't make you automatically E evil.
--- End quote ---
Did you just hold up Mab's contracted drafting of fae children into her army as an evil event, but then hold up an act which emancipated an entire nation of slaves as a Captial E Evil?
I'm not gonna get all theological with you, but let's just look at the facts. Assuming that the historical event in the Dresdenverse follows the events recounted in Bible:
-Egypt had already had every Hebrew person enslaved, for generations, working them to the bone.
-Egypt had already called for mass infanticide for a period of time among the Hebrews; that's why Moses was hidden in the reeds. It was commanded that the infants be killed when they were born.
-Pharaoh was given nine previous demonstrations of the power of TWG, and on each individual occasion he was given the choice to let the tens of thousands of men, women, and children go. At this point, TWG had already turned the river to blood, blotted out the sun, caused rampant disease and death among the livestock, and showered firey hailstones on the land of Egypt. Pharaoh knew what TWG was capable of. Furthermore, he was told what would happen if he didn't free his slaves, and still chose to let a portion of his nation's children die.
-The last plague, the killing of the first-born, mirrors in a much, much smaller way what Egypt was already doing to the Hebrew nation.
This is a war between TWG and the (presumed) mortal Pharaoh who was also set up as a god of Egypt, in order to free a nation enslaved and slowly killed. This is what you call Captial E Evil? And you somehow hold up Nicodemus' goals, as expressed in Death Masks, as not Capital E Evil?
--- Quote from: Anubissama ---Rememebr, history is written by the victor, and if there is anything the church is good at its propaganda. Maybe Lucifer was a proud rebel spitting in the face of a loving father, or maybe he was a freedom fighter trying to save his brethren from tyranny and enslavement and was ready to fight for what he believed to be the right thing, damn the costs.
--- End quote ---
I mean, sure, you can argue whatever you want if you choose to say "Well, what if this thing was evil all along and the good guys are just lying about it?" But in judging Uriel, the Knights, and the Church as portrayed in the Dresden Files thus far, and judging by their actions and the results of them, I think that it would be a pretty big conspiracy theory if the end result of the book series was "Hey, look, the monsters were good all along and it was the good guys who are evil!"
Arjan:
Punishing the father by killing his son is morally wrong whatever the father did but I do not think the Uriel who killed the firstborn is the same as the Uriel who walks around now just like the Odin who demanded human sacrifices is not the same one as he who talked with Harry.
They change because the stories about them change.
Besides we were talking about the morality of Nicodemus which is an easier problem.
Anubissama:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 09, 2017, 03:56:18 PM ---So, these are Mab's 'evil' qualities? Her epic level of torture for a traitor who nearly destroyed the balance of the world forever (and arguably could have killed it), murder, and her drafting of young fae to grow up to be soldiers? I mean, she's not a saint or anything - but the Denarians, less evil than Mab?
--- End quote ---
That's my whole point, they are at worst equal evils, but everyone says the Mab is the lesser/predictable evil. And from a power standpoint, it makes much more sense to pick up a coin then taking up the Mantle, which I explained earlier as well.
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 09, 2017, 03:56:18 PM ---Do you remember what Nicodemus' plans were in Death Masks? To take an absolutely horrific plague that killed everyone that caught it in horrible, twisted, torturous ways, and to go to O'Hare Airport and spread it across the nation, and to the rest of the world. To basically have a worldwide pandemic, killing billions in excruciatingly painful, torturous ways, to kickstart the apocalypse. And that was just one of their many twisted plans that they've done through the millenia.
You could certainly argue that his plans in Small Favor weren't so horrible, but that's only because Nicodemus doesn't go out and state what he wants to do with Ivy. It's clear what he can do with Ivy; like start a nuclear holocaust. Or bring some Old Ones back into existence. Granted, the second one isn't probably likely, but the first one is directly in line with his original goals.
--- End quote ---
That's the problem with not going his real end goal. Yes, a couple of millions of people dead is bad (since billions is an exaggeration, the plague was a conjured bacterium so it needed constant energy flow to keep existing, and the fake shroud wouldn't have had enough juice to sustain it beyond 1-3 sun rises). But do you think there will be no casualty during the BAT?
Who knows once the book series is complete if Nic's alternative plan of "kill a couple million" will look like a rather nice alternative.
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 09, 2017, 03:56:18 PM ---Well, yes, the Aquarium scene does pretty much state that he's aware of Nemesis and that he works against it. But that's far from saying that Nicodemus' ultimate goal is to stop the Outsiders. He never goes so far. All he really demonstrates is that he recognizes them as another power, similar to the Red Court at the time, which he is shocked and infuriated to learn has infiltrated his ranks.
--- End quote ---
The scene does more than establishing that he knows about them. He is in strict opposition to them and is against all reality threatening plots. In the great scheme of things, he is as much a force for good as is Mab.
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 09, 2017, 03:56:18 PM ---Did you just hold up Mab's contracted drafting of fae children into her army as an evil event, but then hold up an act which emancipated an entire nation of slaves as a Captial E Evil?
--- End quote ---
No. I am saying that, again, that Mab and Nic are at worst equal in their evilness. And that the murderers *unnecessary* acts of violence that TWG does, strips him and his side of any moral superiority. So saying that Denarians are evil just because they oppose TWG isn't a real argument. You have to show me that they have truly evil intentions. Because so far they have been doing stuff that Mab and TWG have been doing too, and probably for the same reason, fighting Outsiders.
And not to go all theologian on you but:
--- Quote --- And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
--- End quote ---
So yee WG is a bit of prick here, not only killing babies but also mind controlling the pharaoh in to not agreeing so that he can torture him some more. Not to mention the fact that as an omnipotent being he could just teleport "his people" out of Egypt no killing necessary but that wouldn't apparently be fun enough for him. Or the fact as you mentioned yourself waiting for generations of their suffering before acting. Got to soften them up so they will worship you more once you rescue them, hmm?
In the end, the situation is as following ALL 3 sides Denari, Mab, TWG have been doing disgusting and vile things for centuries if not millenia. Presumably all to either fight the Outsiders or to strengthen and widen their own power. But yet for some reason, Nic and the Denari are seen as some unredeemable E Evil, while Mab is a strict aunt and TWG is a paragon of good. With nothing to really distinguish them from each other if you take away the 2000 years of PR campaign, the Church has been running.
DonBugen:
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
--- End quote ---
So yee WG is a bit of prick here, not only killing babies but also mind controlling the pharaoh in to not agreeing so that he can torture him some more.
--- End quote ---
I just want to say, this is one area in which the Dresden Files' White God doesn't match up with our world's Christian God. I have a feeling that this section of the Dresden Bible might be different, sort of like how Thomas' "Faith, Hope and Love" quotation was so obviously different (beyond a reasonable allowance for paraphrase). TWG and his followers have outright stated time and time again, and demonstrated time and time again, that their greatest priority is the preservation of freedom of choice.
I'm not arguing Christian morality or theology, I'm using the Bible in the same way that Harry mentioned the story of Persephone to Hades. Besides, that bit about TWG was just a minor point.
At this point, we know the worst that Mab has done, and we know the reasons why. However, as for Nicodemus we know the worst that he's done - which is far worse then Mab - and you only have some guesses as to the reasons why. The only way in which Nicodemus' actions are not seen as an atrocity would be if he is trying to do some amazing fantastic wonderful thing that saves the entire world. And that is just so much hypothesis.
Besides, I think that an intellectual evil and temptation is far more difficult to contract than an emotional one. If a person is being emotionally tempted, they can usually reason and logic their way out of it. But if I'm being tempted using intelligence, logic, reasoning, by a being a million times more intelligent than I am, how would a person counteract that?
Maybe, possibly, it might be easier to walk away from a coin. But I think that the collateral damage would be far greater.
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