The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mab has a vested interest in screwing Nick over; I don’t believe that she would just take Nick’s word at heart and swap in another winter goon. That would pretty much ensure that Nick would walk out with all holy artifacts. In the event of Harry’s death, it’s Mab’s word against Nicodemus’, and Mab’s perception that matters.
--- End quote ---
Not to mention it was also part of an elaborate set up by her and Marcone to get revenge on Nic.. The Artifacts were an added bonus.
--- Quote ---First – yes, her talk about having faith and deciding to not be afraid that her friends will turn into monsters does sound like Michael. Why isn’t she taking her own advice? If she’s not going to live in fear that Dresden will turn into a monster, then why is she still self-appointed custodian?
--- End quote ---
Very good point, my theory is she is feeling increasingly in over her head on this new stage with the BAT on the horizon.. Keeping herself in charge of the Swords would at least give her some control in a world that she feels less and less a part of.
--- Quote ---Second – the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this. The point is that their creed believes that people given authority are ordained by God. Regardless of how corrupt or not corrupt the church is, Murphy believes in the power behind it, which is why she shouldn’t have self-appointed herself.
--- End quote ---
She also didn't hesitate to use faith and her religious faith verses Harry's lack there of to justify her self appointment. Aside for her argument that he could turn into a monster was her main basis for keeping the Swords.
--- Quote ---Bottom line – whether Harry entrusted the swords to her in his will or not, he’s not dead anymore. He’s very much alive, and she claims that having faith and trust in Dresden is the very thing that he needs most, and that she’s decided not to be afraid that he might turn into a monster..
--- End quote ---
No, he isn't dead, and I doubt he left the Swords to her in his will, they were never his, only their guardianship.. She was executor of his will, but I do not remember anything in the books where it was said that the Swords were left to her. All I recall is in Changes he told her where they were at if she changed her mind about being a Knight, which isn't the same thing as making her custodian..
--- Quote ---Come on. Murphy is the Dresden Files’ Batman; a mortal who holds her own through smarts, competence, and planning for every eventuality. You think she brought a Sword along to kill Denarians and would have forgotten to bring something to grab the coin that topples out? Ten to one that if she’s not wearing leather gloves (I mean, it is winter, and the book doesn’t describe her hands) that she’s at least got a run-of-the-mill handkerchief or ziplock bag in her pocket. It would be out of character for Karrin to not plan for this.
--- End quote ---
Exactly, and we have the example of the fight at the aquarium in Small Favor, Denarians died and coins were collected without special equipment.. Anyway, all Murphy had to do was accept Nic's surrender and tell him to have a good rest of his life seeking redemption.. Then pick up his noose and pull out a tissue to pick up the coin..
--- Quote ---Going from a two-handed to the weaker one-handed grip (and yes, a katana can be held and fought with one-handed), reaching her other hand in her pocket to retrieve a handkerchief, crouching and retrieving the coin while still holding the sword to Nick and not taking her eyes off of him, does still compromise her attention and position. This is true. But if Nick acts in sudden aggression or acts to retrieve the coin, then he’s no longer surrendered and Karrin can strike. Then he’s standing there with no noose on his neck, possibly no coin, facing a sword that can literally end him. This is not a better position. Yes, he could possibly turn the tables, but that’s by no means a sure thing – and in that case, she just merely has another trap with another choice.
--- End quote ---
In my opinion if Murphy had accepted Nic's surrender, he would have been toast, end story.. As you say if he was lying and did try to attack in that moment, all bets were off, Murphy was free to kill him... However his bet was that she wouldn't do that, that she could not resist the temptation to sit in judgement of him and try to execute him, thus getting a Holy Sword broken.. Remember how bitter Cassius became? His was a sham surrender as well to save his neck, but it was accepted.. He wanted nothing more than to take up another coin, but no offers ever came his way again.
jbmdw45:
--- Quote from: magnuskn on August 09, 2017, 02:58:40 AM ---Saying that Murphy is the last true blue mortal on the team is a good point. However, her getting so badly wounded by Nic that she'll never recover 100% is also a point where you got to wonder what her future role as "the normal" is going to be in the series. It's fully possible that she'll transition into another role, but given how much her identity has been to be this tough woman, I bet it would trigger even more of an identity crisis than she already had after having to leave the CPD.
--- End quote ---
In the immortal words of Spiderman: Homecoming...
She can become Harry's "guy in the chair!"
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 28, 2017, 09:17:28 PM --- I think it doesn’t much matter if Harry’s dead or alive; even if Nick kills everyone, he’s not the only witness. As I said, Mab has many servants with eyes open in the mortal world, not to mention the fact that she herself is likely keeping tabs on the operation. Why else is it that Dresden considers the vault to be literally the only place that Nick could double-cross him without word spreading?
Mab has a vested interest in screwing Nick over; I don’t believe that she would just take Nick’s word at heart and swap in another winter goon. That would pretty much ensure that Nick would walk out with all holy artifacts. In the event of Harry’s death, it’s Mab’s word against Nicodemus’, and Mab’s perception that matters.
First – yes, her talk about having faith and deciding to not be afraid that her friends will turn into monsters does sound like Michael. Why isn’t she taking her own advice? If she’s not going to live in fear that Dresden will turn into a monster, then why is she still self-appointed custodian?
Second – the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this. The point is that their creed believes that people given authority are ordained by God. Regardless of how corrupt or not corrupt the church is, Murphy believes in the power behind it, which is why she shouldn’t have self-appointed herself.
Third – by hiding the swords at Michael’s, she’s made him in the game. Pure and simple.
Bottom line – whether Harry entrusted the swords to her in his will or not, he’s not dead anymore. He’s very much alive, and she claims that having faith and trust in Dresden is the very thing that he needs most, and that she’s decided not to be afraid that he might turn into a monster.
Absolutely! And this is the beauty of the entire situation. We know that Michael’s fear is completely misplaced. We know that Michael fears that his friend might have succumbed to the darkness. Dresden calls him out on it, and Michael decides to trust in and have faith in his friend. It’s a beautiful moment in this, because Harry asks Michael to trust him as he literally seems to be about to give the swords away to the Denarians. And Michael decides to trust his friend and have faith.
I think this is part of the reason why later on, Michael outright laughs at Harry’s fear of descending into darkness, reminding him that he’s “pathologically unable to know when to quit.” Michael’s been down the same road as Karrin and has grown in faith and character. If Karrin’s talk about faith did come from Michael, this is likely why – because he’s been there. He knows what she’s afraid of.
Even assuming that a blackened Denarius containing a Fallen wouldn’t trigger some sort of response from the guardian angels – something that I find surprising, considering the being inside it and the danger that a Denarius represents to any mortal – how do you figure that Nick can retrieve it as simply as that? Stroll in, sure. The second he touches it, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Denarius again, who has Anduriel working through him to influence the physical world. A millisecond later, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Ash Pile on the Front Steps. And if he goes and retrieves it without touching the coin, he’s essentially defenseless and proving that he isn’t relinquishing the coin.
Why else does Harry consider Michael’s house to be the best place in the city to go to for shelter from fallen angels? Harry comes to the conclusion that Butters must be going to Michael’s house before he figures out that the swords are there. If the angelic sentry doesn’t provide protection, then Butters is far better off going to a public location – possibly holy ground at Saint Mary of the Angels, rather than a house full of innocent, vulnerable children.
Come on. Murphy is the Dresden Files’ Batman; a mortal who holds her own through smarts, competence, and planning for every eventuality. You think she brought a Sword along to kill Denarians and would have forgotten to bring something to grab the coin that topples out? Ten to one that if she’s not wearing leather gloves (I mean, it is winter, and the book doesn’t describe her hands) that she’s at least got a run-of-the-mill handkerchief or ziplock bag in her pocket. It would be out of character for Karrin to not plan for this.
Going from a two-handed to the weaker one-handed grip (and yes, a katana can be held and fought with one-handed), reaching her other hand in her pocket to retrieve a handkerchief, crouching and retrieving the coin while still holding the sword to Nick and not taking her eyes off of him, does still compromise her attention and position. This is true. But if Nick acts in sudden aggression or acts to retrieve the coin, then he’s no longer surrendered and Karrin can strike. Then he’s standing there with no noose on his neck, possibly no coin, facing a sword that can literally end him. This is not a better position. Yes, he could possibly turn the tables, but that’s by no means a sure thing – and in that case, she just merely has another trap with another choice.
--- End quote ---
Mab can lawyer her way out of many things, but there is a limit to it. If the deal is broken, Mab is bound to compensate whether she wants to or not. Mab is a fae Queen, she is not a trickster god like Loki or Coyote. In D&D terms, Mab's alignment is most certainly "Order" and not "Chaos". Assuming that Mab can perceived things as much as she please is a gross mistake, and with Anduriel behind Nicodemous, Nick probably knows the law behind Mab's existence better than most. Mab's interpreatation is what matters, but Mab is bound by her nature and will become powerless under the right circumstances.
There is a line between faith and stupidity, and assuming that not trusting Harry automatically mean one is faithless is another over generalization
Also, Murphe take the custodian post shortly after end of book 12, she refuse to return the swords to Harry at book 14 and she finally choose to trust Harry again in book 15. Do not mixed up the order of events because it is important. There is a process there. A process where Murphy re-evaluate Harry and make an inform choice whether or not she is willing to trust Harry that much. In book 12, book 13 and book 14, Murphy is not yet arrive at that trust level. That is why she did not follow her own advice, because she has not reach there yet. By the time she arrive at point of trust, Harry no longer ask for the swords from her.
There is essensially no difference between Michael and Murphy. The only difference is ther circumstances. Both of them doubted Harry at some point. Michael however, is face with a situation where he has to make a quick snap decision whether to trust Harry or not. Ivy is captured, possible Nuclear Armageddon is on the horizon, and getting divided and suspicious will most certainly spell their doom. Michael does not has the luxury to wait and evaluate. Murphy has that luxury. In fact, in her situation, waiting is probably the safer option while being hasty could be a disaster. Which is why both of their response are different.
In a way, Michael show a lot less trust. He has been doubting Harry for some time already, but he refuse to confront Harry about it, while Murphy dares to go to Harry directly about her misgivings. Michael kept quiet, Michael does not even gave Harry a chance to defend himself, not until Harry force the issue on to Michael.
As for the coin, if you consider Nick without the coin is an incompetent fool, then yes, Murphy trying to take anduriel's coin away is a good idea Sure, this 2000 year old denarian lord definitely has no backup plan and will just let Murphy take the coin away just like that. Yeah, right. Not to mention, that if Murphy truly manage to take away Nick's coin and noose away, it might cause Nick to order the Genoskwa to just kill Harry out of spite even if he has to fall himself. Furthermore, I am sure trying to steal Nick's coin and noose while Harry and Murphy is technically under Mab's deal would probably end up with Harry crucified even if he could survive.
It is a bad idea all around.
DonBugen:
--- Quote ---Mab can lawyer her way out of many things, but there is a limit to it. If the deal is broken, Mab is bound to compensate whether she wants to or not. Mab is a fae Queen, she is not a trickster god like Loki or Coyote. In D&D terms, Mab's alignment is most certainly "Order" and not "Chaos". Assuming that Mab can perceived things as much as she please is a gross mistake, and with Anduriel behind Nicodemous, Nick probably knows the law behind Mab's existence better than most. Mab's interpreatation is what matters, but Mab is bound by her nature and will become powerless under the right circumstances.
--- End quote ---
It's a mistake to think that Mab doesn't have eyes on everything going on? Argue with this.
1. Little folk are everywhere. Like, freaking everywhere.
2. Harry has demonstrated numerous times that they can be bribed and relied upon to give a basic "this happened then this happened then this happened" report.
3. They also can't lie.
4. Mab is a Queen of Faerie. She already has demonstrated through interference with Toot and Lacuna that they defer to her will.
So what on earth makes you think that, if Harry's not there to defend himself, that somehow Mab is forced to accept her Knight's murderer's version of events, just because Harry isn't around to argue it? Why wouldnt she use the same argument of bad luck and gross incompetence?
I'm pretty sure that would make Nicodemus seem more guilty, not less.
--- Quote --- That is why she did not follow her own advice, because she has not reach there yet. By the time she arrive at point of trust, Harry no longer ask for the swords from her.
--- End quote ---
So when she and Harry talk about the swords before joining the evil league of evil, that would be a great point for her to act on her newfound convictions and say, "Hey, by the way, you can have 'em back whenever. I'll tell you where they are in a more secure place." And yes, Harry doesn't ask for them back. If he ever wants Karrin to give them back, one way to NOT convince her is to ask, "Hey, can I have the swords now?" every time they meet. Sheesh.
--- Quote ---In a way, Michael show a lot less trust. He has been doubting Harry for some time already, but he refuse to confront Harry about it, while Murphy dares to go to Harry directly about her misgivings. Michael kept quiet, Michael does not even gave Harry a chance to defend himself, not until Harry force the issue on to Michael
--- End quote ---
What? Are you serious?
Ok, Michael expresses misgivings five years after seeing Dresden touch the coin. His main sin against Dresden is that he's been giving him funny looks. He trusts Dresden to have a one-on-one with Nick several times and to manage pretty much everything that's happening in SF. NOT TO MENTION that he's trusting Harry to closely mentor his oldest daughter in the same arts that he believes Harry must give up to be free of the shadow. His conversation with him at the edge of PG prove that he still trusts Harry to find a worthy recipient of the sword. And when Harry calls Michael out on his misgivings, Michael listens.
Flipside: on Harry's first day of being on duty as the Winter Knight, Karrin tells him that she's taken the Swords and won't give them back and that it's to protect them against Harry turning into a monster. Just because shevs been up front with this does not mean that she trusts Harry not to become a monster, and certainly not more than a man who has trusted Harry with the swords for five freaking years.
--- Quote ---As for the coin, if you consider Nick without the coin is an incompetent fool, then yes, Murphy trying to take anduriel's coin away is a good idea Sure, this 2000 year old denarian lord definitely has no backup plan and will just let Murphy take the coin away just like that. Yeah, right. Not to mention, that if Murphy truly manage to take away Nick's coin and noose away, it might cause Nick to order the Genoskwa to just kill Harry out of spite even if he has to fall himself. Furthermore, I am sure trying to steal Nick's coin and noose while Harry and Murphy is technically under Mab's deal would probably end up with Harry crucified even if he could survive.
It is a bad idea all around.
--- End quote ---
Look, I'm not trying to say that if Harry had followed this plan, everything would have been sunshine, daffodils, and butterflies. I don't know that. No one knows that. I'm even willing to admit that it could take some sort of miracle-level of intervention to get their butts out. But that's exactly what happens when the Knights of the cross trust in their God and make the best choices. I'm simply trying to say here that you can't say that Murphy only had one choice, and that was to make the sword vulnerable. Making the sword vulnerable and did absolutely nothing to help them.
Mira:
--- Quote ---It's a mistake to think that Mab doesn't have eyes on everything going on? Argue with this.
1. Little folk are everywhere. Like, freaking everywhere.
2. Harry has demonstrated numerous times that they can be bribed and relied upon to give a basic "this happened then this happened then this happened" report.
3. They also can't lie.
4. Mab is a Queen of Faerie. She already has demonstrated through interference with Toot and Lacuna that they defer to her will.
So what on earth makes you think that, if Harry's not there to defend himself, that somehow Mab is forced to accept her Knight's murderer's version of events, just because Harry isn't around to argue it? Why wouldnt she use the same argument of bad luck and gross incompetence?
I'm pretty sure that would make Nicodemus seem more guilty, not less.
--- End quote ---
Mab is tricky, her ultimate goal at the end of the day is revenge, for which planning was years in the making. She didn't care really who died in the process, that is why Harry was so pissed at both her and Marcone at the end of the book. But Nic didn't know any of that at the time.. Even if he got away with his lie to her, it might take eons before she acquired another Knight that not only had Harry's skill set but was a star born as well. Nic isn't that stupid, Harry knows he isn't that stupid, he sees it for what it is, a ruse pretty quickly even when he had those huge paws wrapped around his skull.
--- Quote ---So when she and Harry talk about the swords before joining the evil league of evil, that would be a great point for her to act on her newfound convictions and say, "Hey, by the way, you can have 'em back whenever. I'll tell you where they are in a more secure place." And yes, Harry doesn't ask for them back. If he ever wants Karrin to give them back, one way to NOT convince her is to ask, "Hey, can I have the swords now?" every time they meet. Sheesh.
--- End quote ---
Mainly because Harry is still convinced that he could turn into a monster, she doesn't disabuse him of that idea, plus she keeps throwing faith into his face implying because he isn't religious he didn't get the Word that the Swords have passed on.. Lies... But Harry believes them because he absolutely trusts Murphy and her judgement, which makes the whole scene stink. He is already suffering from survivor's guilt because he had to kill Susan, the mother of his child, and he is still grieving over her.. Murphy sends him mixed messages, he needs to see his child, but oh by the way you can still become a monster... She is right about him needing to meet his child, but she is totally wrong about why he is afraid to do so.
--- Quote ---Ok, Michael expresses misgivings five years after seeing Dresden touch the coin. His main sin against Dresden is that he's been giving him funny looks. He trusts Dresden to have a one-on-one with Nick several times and to manage pretty much everything that's happening in SF. NOT TO MENTION that he's trusting Harry to closely mentor his oldest daughter in the same arts that he believes Harry must give up to be free of the shadow. His conversation with him at the edge of PG prove that he still trusts Harry to find a worthy recipient of the sword. And when Harry calls Michael out on his misgivings, Michael listens.
--- End quote ---
Thank you! That is the key here, Michael actually listened to Harry verses Murphy who lectured a lot but never asked squat or listened.. Michael also gave Harry total reassurance that in his opinion Harry would never turn into a monster, because he knows him, the real him. Consider, Harry had one of the Fallen's shadow in his head for a number of years, Michael knew where he kept Fid, he never demanded it because Harry could take up the coin at anytime.. Michael had faith the Swords were entrusted to Harry for a reason.. If he felt for a minute that the Sword was in danger, he would have demanded it.. He never did.. I don't know how much of any of that struggle Murphy actually knew about, she knew about the anger issues and Hell fire, and rightly had an effective talk to Harry about that, but beyond that I don't think she really does know, she just assumes a lot.
--- Quote --- Look, I'm not trying to say that if Harry had followed this plan, everything would have been sunshine, daffodils, and butterflies. I don't know that. No one knows that. I'm even willing to admit that there must be some sort of miracle-level of intervention to get their butts out. But that's exactly what happens when the Knights of the cross trust in their God and make the best choices. I'm simply trying to say here that you can't say that Murphy only had one choice, and that was to make the sword vulnerable. Making the sword vulnerable and did absolutely nothing to help them.
--- End quote ---
Her choice was to act as a Knight since she decided to bring a Holy Sword along, only she knew she wasn't a Knight... How would Michael act, or Shiro, or Sanya? They'd accept Nic's offer of surrender, and wish him well on his road to redemption.. That's what Holy Knights do... The rest is left up to the Almighty, if He sees fit that Harry dies as a result, so be it... If Nic recants and tries to take the coin and noose back, so be it.. Why because they have faith and that is the purpose of the Swords, upon surrender of coin and noose Nic has to be given his shot at redemption.. When Murphy chose to act as judge and executioner of a defenseless Nic at that moment, the Holy Sword became an ordinary weapon subject to all the stress and strains of an ordinary blade, and it shattered on the icy sidewalk.... Murphy knew it too in that moment, the Sword as she began her downward stroke gleamed with a very ordinary light..
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version