The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

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Mr. Death:
Correction -- Harry doesn't say Mab would accept his version of events. He says his actions could be explained. If Harry is, indeed, there to do the explaining.

Do you think if Harry's dead, Nicodemus is going to share Harry's version of events?

Or is he going to say, "We've both seen him use deadly and precise magic to kill much stronger things in an instant. For hell's sake, we were in the snow and he's the Winter Knight, he was literally in his element at the height of your power, and his spell fails to kill a mere mortal that was already injured? If he didn't want to use magic, he also had a large handgun on him -- which he used to attack my associate instead. Failing either of those, he had a six-foot length of oak and supernatural strength that you granted to him. He could have hit the man once and caved in his skull. There are several ways that Dresden could have easily -- effortlessly, even -- killed the scrawny, mortal doctor, and he didn't, meaning he betrayed me."

You're really reading Nicodemus wrong here. He and Harry both know that Harry's "pursuit" is a complete sham. Nicodemus is saying, "My attempt to kill you was a ploy; just like you were really trying to kill Butters." He couldn't have made it clearer if he actually said, "Wink wink, nudge nudge."

Nicodemus is explicitly and directly likening his "ploy" story to the obviously false story that Harry was genuinely trying to kill Butters. He's reveling in telling Harry to his face that he's full of shit, and that Harry has to accept it.


--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 27, 2017, 07:21:38 PM ---That is an excellent argument if Karen had decided to appoint someone a Knight before CD, but not so much after. Karrin is Catholic, same as Michael. They both believe that the will of God should be followed. Their creed states that priests, bishops, and popes should be divinely ordained, as well as anyone else in that kind of high position. So why does she take up on herself the role and responsibility?

One would think that she would think that Michael would be a better choice to ordain the next bearer of the swords. Instead, she refuses to give up control and takes the role upon herself. And we see that the results are disastrous. I don't argue that she felt like she had the responsibility, but just because she felt like she had the responsibility didn't mean that she actually had it.
--- End quote ---
I find it hard to believe that Murphy never went to Michael for guidance on any of this. Hell, in Skin Game, her talks about Faith sound a lot like him.

Even if she didn't, she's bright enough to know that the Catholic Church is not, shall we say, as pristine and pure as it says it is.

Michael is out of the game. Neither Harry nor Murphy want to bring any more ire down on him or his family.

Bottom line, though, is that Murphy has the Swords because Harry entrusted them to her. She's executor of his Will, he told her where to find them, and he's not the least bit surprised when she has them in Ghost Story. All evidence points to her having the Swords because the friend that she loves and trusts felt that she should have them.


--- Quote ---There were many levels of acceptance for using the coin. Remember? With each level, Harry got a little bit more power, and Lash got a little more control. Touching coin, Harry got the shadow, Lash got to communicate to Harry's subconscious, and some involuntary use of her power. Calling on that power voluntarily gave him direct communication with Lash,  the ability for him to be reasoned and argued with, and the access to her knowledge. It's true that in the case of the winter mantel, Harry is currently further along the path than he was with lash. But make no mistake, he has already made the choice and accepted the power in. Foot in the door. Lash admits that no one who had accepted to the level that he already had had remained uncorrupted. In the long- term, a mortal who held a coin has just as much chance to be corrupted as a mortal having the winter mantle: it's an almost certainty. That's why I think that there's a fundamental difference between Michael and Karrin in this case: Michael had faith that his friend wouldn't become corrupted. Karrin did not.

--- End quote ---
Don't forget that Michael told Harry to give up his magic to get rid of the Shadow. Michael did not have faith that Harry could overcome it on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have told him that was the only way.

And recall Small Favor, where Michael outright suspects that Harry's been subverted, and Harry has to force him into a, "Strike now, or forever keep your trap shut" moment to get him out of it.

Michael has a lot of faith in Harry, but in Small Favor we see that he's just as worried about Harry losing to the shadow as Murphy is -- and that's after the shadow is actually gone.


--- Quote ---You say that now, but remember: we don't actually know what Nicodemus' long term plans actually are. Nick is an ends justify the means kind of person, and it's been very clear throughout all of his appearances that he running against a deadline against something gigantic. His daughter also says candidly that they believe that they're saving the world. In SF, one of the books in which I think that he's being the most upfront and honest, he really does try to persuade Dresden, and says that a lot of the job would actually be good.

I believe that at this point, he thinks that Lash has more influence over him and that he could be swayed. There's no reason to give Harry the coin of the temptress unless he actually intends to win him over to his court. I think that once he understands what Nick has been working towards, they will still be enemies. But he will, to an extent, understand why he went to such lengths. And that understanding can lead to empathy.
--- End quote ---
By on a personal level, I meant that Hannah's story is a lot like Harry's -- burned to death someone who meant to do him harm, suspected by the Wardens at every turn. Hannah just didn't have someone to intercede for her. Harry sees himself in Hannah. Harry doesn't see himself in Nicodemus.

Or rather, the bits of himself he sees in Nicodemus, he hates.

As for the issue of throwing the coin in Michael's yard, that wouldn't have done anything.

Nicodemus gives up the coin, and he's mortal. Mortals can walk right up to Michael's front door and set the place on fire. And as a mortal, Nicodemus can just walk right through that white picket fence, pick up the coin, and stroll back out.

Plus, while Murphy's stooping down to pick up the coin (barehanded? Meaning the fallen inside gets influence on her?), she's not holding the sword to Nic's throat as well, meaning that Nicodemus can easily disarm her.

The situation Murphy's in is extremely tenuous. The blade at Nicodemus's throat is the only leverage she has. Taking her attention off him is going to be enough time for him to turn the tables.

Mira:

--- Quote ---OK, so if Nick is just holding out in order to get a chance of destroying a sword, which he didn’t even know would be in play until Karrin pulls it out, then what else is he holding out for after he puts Murphy down?  Why didn’t Nick say, “OK, Gen, now REALLY crush his skull.”?
--- End quote ---

Because Nic did know because Andriel sees and hears everything unless blocked or in very special places..  Now the actions of Butters did speed things up a bit, but make no mistake, Nic had Murphy's number and was going to set her up so a Sword could be broken..

huangjimmy108:

--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 28, 2017, 03:16:49 PM ---
OK, so if Nick is just holding out in order to get a chance of destroying a sword, which he didn’t even know would be in play until Karrin pulls it out, then what else is he holding out for after he puts Murphy down?  Why didn’t Nick say, “OK, Gen, now REALLY crush his skull.”?
(quote)


Because like all bad guys, Nick is too busy gloating. He just destroy one of the holy sword, permanently or so he thinks, his eternal bane of existence is no more. He got good reason to gloat and cause addition emotional suffering for both Harry and Karrin while he is at it, which could grant denarians like him extra power if what is mentioned in book 5 has any truth.

(quote)
Nick can harm Karrin because Karrin attacked him, but she didn’t do so on Dresden’s orders.  Her actions and choices were her own.  And when Nick tells Harry to “call off your dog before I put her down” he tells him to end the little doctor and things can go back to normal.  Harry finds a way out by seemingly attempting to end Butters and failing, which is how they get into Nick’s next ploy.
(quote)

This is obviously wrong. By faerie custom, as Harry's + 1, Murphy's action is not only her own. In the eyes of faerie and Mab, Murphy is no different than Harry's staff.

If Nick can attack Murphy because Murphy attack him, he can attack Harry as well, because by faerie law Murphy attacking Nick is no different than Harry attacking Nick. Book 4 explain this rule explicitly.

(quote)
Um, let me re-phrase again.  Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards and expect Mab to agree to his version of events and give him another Winter Knight.  And where is this “his nature is to say whatever he wants, even if it bites him in the ass later” thing coming from?  Nicodemus is a schemer and a plotter, every move he makes considers the likely consequences and long-term results of his actions.  Him killing Dresden and claiming that Dresden betrayed him, even though he offered Nick no violence, fought the stone lion, fired magic at a fleeing target and blasted said target with the same amount of kinetic force as a 55 MPH truck?  No.  Dresden stuck to the letter of the agreement.  Nick is in the same position that Harry is in later at Hades’ vault – if Nick wants to justly kill Dresden, he has to provoke Dresden to attack outright, which could not be misconstrued as anything other than a betrayal of the agreement.
(quote)

Nick does not need to say anything. If it come to a point where Nick need to explain himself to Mab, he already lost because you cannot outlawyer the Queen of winter.

Again, Murphy attacking Nick is Harry attacking Nick. In the eyes of faerie, Murphy is a non entity. She is just Harry's tool, nothing more.

By the time Harry forzare Butters to safety, the deal is broken beyond doubt.

 

(quote)
I disagree; if the truce was truly broken at this point, then why would Harry have phrased his attack by saying first, “Sorry, Butters, nothing personal” before blasting him in the chest?  Directly before this, Nick does not call for Harry to surrender Butters; he calls for him to end him.  Forzare is primarily used as an attack spell.  Dresden and Mab can certainly lawyer that Harry did attempt to end Butters; he just did a particularly incompetent job of it.  The reason that everything moved when it did was because Nick suddenly lost one point of leverage, and needed to gain another – instead of threatening Butters’ life, he threatens Harry’s.
(quote)

Harry say that to make sure Nick can't prevent his move. Doing what he did, Harry knew he is breaking Mab words and he and Murphy will be in danger, but if Nick caught on to it, even Butters might fail to escape the net. Better 2 in danger rather than 3.

You need to understand the fae. Mab is a creature of absolute. She  does not care about the process. She doesn't need explanations or excuses, she wants result.

Her orders are for Harry to help Nicodemous. Nicodemous ordered Harry to end Butters. As long as Butters is ended everything will be fine or else.

The reason why Harry could fain incompetence before is because Nick does not gave him any direct order. When Butters is discovered, Nick and the Genoskwa immedietly went for the chase. There is no instruction for Harry. So as long as Harry is not caught red handed, he can do a lot of monkey business.

Things are different when Harry and Butters is caught red handed in front of Michael's home. Nick gave Harry a direct order and he refuse.


It is the "bring me a coke" order Harry gave to cat sith in book 14. The coke can be hot, it can be poisoned, it can have a bomb attach to it, but the coke must be brought to Harry. Butters must die or Harry will be breaking Mab's promise.

Since Butters did not die and there is nothing else can be done to change the circumstances, there must be compensation, there is a price to be paid. It could be Harry's wintery crusifiction or death or it ought to be, but Michael intervened and offered something else in exchange and Nick accept it.

Whether or not Nick knew about Murphy bringing fid is not truly important. Whether or not fid is the real target is not important either. What is important that the appearance of fid in front of Nick is enough to distract Nick. If Nick does not need Harry alive in order to unbalance Murphy, Nick probably would just kill Harry out of hand. not to mention Murphy will be free to smite him down if the Genoswa really kill Harry. No, until fid is disarm and no longer a threat, Harry cannot be killed or Nick himself will be in danger.


--- End quote ---

DonBugen:

--- Quote --- Do you think if Harry's dead, Nicodemus is going to share Harry's version of events?
--- End quote ---
  I think it doesn’t much matter if Harry’s dead or alive; even if Nick kills everyone, he’s not the only witness.  As I said, Mab has many servants with eyes open in the mortal world, not to mention the fact that she herself is likely keeping tabs on the operation.  Why else is it that Dresden considers the vault to be literally the only place that Nick could double-cross him without word spreading?

Mab has a vested interest in screwing Nick over; I don’t believe that she would just take Nick’s word at heart and swap in another winter goon.  That would pretty much ensure that Nick would walk out with all holy artifacts.  In the event of Harry’s death, it’s Mab’s word against Nicodemus’, and Mab’s perception that matters.


--- Quote ---I find it hard to believe that Murphy never went to Michael for guidance on any of this. Hell, in Skin Game, her talks about Faith sound a lot like him.

 

Even if she didn't, she's bright enough to know that the Catholic Church is not, shall we say, as pristine and pure as it says it is.

 

Michael is out of the game. Neither Harry nor Murphy want to bring any more ire down on him or his family.

 

Bottom line, though, is that Murphy has the Swords because Harry entrusted them to her. She's executor of his Will, he told her where to find them, and he's not the least bit surprised when she has them in Ghost Story. All evidence points to her having the Swords because the friend that she loves and trusts felt that she should have them.
--- End quote ---
First – yes, her talk about having faith and deciding to not be afraid that her friends will turn into monsters does sound like Michael.  Why isn’t she taking her own advice?  If she’s not going to live in fear that Dresden will turn into a monster, then why is she still self-appointed custodian?

Second – the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this.  The point is that their creed believes that people given authority are ordained by God.  Regardless of how corrupt or not corrupt the church is, Murphy believes in the power behind it, which is why she shouldn’t have self-appointed herself.

Third – by hiding the swords at Michael’s, she’s made him in the game.  Pure and simple.

Bottom line – whether Harry entrusted the swords to her in his will or not, he’s not dead anymore.  He’s very much alive, and she claims that having faith and trust in Dresden is the very thing that he needs most, and that she’s decided not to be afraid that he might turn into a monster.


--- Quote --- Michael has a lot of faith in Harry, but in Small Favor we see that he's just as worried about Harry losing to the shadow as Murphy is -- and that's after the shadow is actually gone.
--- End quote ---
  Absolutely!  And this is the beauty of the entire situation.  We know that Michael’s fear is completely misplaced.  We know that Michael fears that his friend might have succumbed to the darkness.  Dresden calls him out on it, and Michael decides to trust in and have faith in his friend.  It’s a beautiful moment in this, because Harry asks Michael to trust him as he literally seems to be about to give the swords away to the Denarians.  And Michael decides to trust his friend and have faith.

I think this is part of the reason why later on, Michael outright laughs at Harry’s fear of descending into darkness, reminding him that he’s “pathologically unable to know when to quit.”  Michael’s been down the same road as Karrin and has grown in faith and character.  If Karrin’s talk about faith did come from Michael, this is likely why – because he’s been there.  He knows what she’s afraid of.


--- Quote --- As for the issue of throwing the coin in Michael's yard, that wouldn't have done anything.

 

Nicodemus gives up the coin, and he's mortal. Mortals can walk right up to Michael's front door and set the place on fire. And as a mortal, Nicodemus can just walk right through that white picket fence, pick up the coin, and stroll back out.
--- End quote ---

Even assuming that a blackened Denarius containing a Fallen wouldn’t trigger some sort of response from the guardian angels – something that I find surprising, considering the being inside it and the danger that a Denarius represents to any mortal – how do you figure that Nick can retrieve it as simply as that?  Stroll in, sure.  The second he touches it, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Denarius again, who has Anduriel working through him to influence the physical world.  A millisecond later, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Ash Pile on the Front Steps.  And if he goes and retrieves it without touching the coin, he’s essentially defenseless and proving that he isn’t relinquishing the coin.

Why else does Harry consider Michael’s house to be the best place in the city to go to for shelter from fallen angels?  Harry comes to the conclusion that Butters must be going to Michael’s house before he figures out that the swords are there.  If the angelic sentry doesn’t provide protection, then Butters is far better off going to a public location – possibly holy ground at Saint Mary of the Angels, rather than a house full of innocent, vulnerable children.


--- Quote --- Plus, while Murphy's stooping down to pick up the coin (barehanded? Meaning the fallen inside gets influence on her?), she's not holding the sword to Nic's throat as well, meaning that Nicodemus can easily disarm her.
--- End quote ---
Come on.  Murphy is the Dresden Files’ Batman; a mortal who holds her own through smarts, competence, and planning for every eventuality.  You think she brought a Sword along to kill Denarians and would have forgotten to bring something to grab the coin that topples out?  Ten to one that if she’s not wearing leather gloves (I mean, it is winter, and the book doesn’t describe her hands) that she’s at least got a run-of-the-mill handkerchief or ziplock bag in her pocket.  It would be out of character for Karrin to not plan for this.

Going from a two-handed to the weaker one-handed grip (and yes, a katana can be held and fought with one-handed), reaching her other hand in her pocket to retrieve a handkerchief, crouching and retrieving the coin while still holding the sword to Nick and not taking her eyes off of him, does still compromise her attention and position.  This is true.  But if Nick acts in sudden aggression or acts to retrieve the coin, then he’s no longer surrendered and Karrin can strike.  Then he’s standing there with no noose on his neck, possibly no coin, facing a sword that can literally end him.  This is not a better position.  Yes, he could possibly turn the tables, but that’s by no means a sure thing – and in that case, she just merely has another trap with another choice.

peregrine:

--- Quote from: Arjan on August 28, 2017, 05:52:14 AM ---Denarian skinwalker and leader of the black council? It was all Nemesis. Murphy never existed.

--- End quote ---
Wrong.  NEMESIS never existed.  It was all Murphy, using that to cover up her evil deeds, like her long term plan to destroy a Sword, by doing exactly what Harry told her to do!

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