The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Mr. Death:
Dom: When that exchange happens, it's after Nicodemus has agreed to let Harry and Murphy go and they're behind the picket fence, out of Nicodemus's immediate reach. Admitting that the deal is off -- while Harry is still alive -- complicates matters because Nicodemus then has to get someone to tackle the Gate of Ice instead of Harry, and Harry has free reign to disrupt his plans.
By contrast, maintaining that the deal is still on serves three purposes for Nicodemus:
1. It saves him the trouble of finding someone else to do Harry's part of the job;
2. It means he doesn't have to worry about Harry scuttling the plan before it's even off the ground;
3. It gives Nicodemus a chance to kill him later on, which we all know he'd been planning to do anyway.
Nicodemus isn't so much saying that Harry was never in danger as he's calling it a draw and backing off to come at him again later. What he's effectively saying is that if Harry tries to call off the deal now on the grounds of Nicodemus trying to kill him, Nicodemus can point out that Harry broke faith first and get him in trouble with Mab. They're at a stalemate at that point, and Nicodemus is content with that for the moment.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote ---And there’s one last thing. This, I want to really request that you answer thoroughly. Your argument had convinced me mostly due to your argument about how Mab wouldn’t admit that her knight was behaving incompetently in this situation. If that was the case, then why does Harry still believe that Mab would reckon that Harry’s actions could be explained as incompetence? If Mab just couldn’t admit that her chosen Knight had trouble with one-hit killing a puny mortal, then why is this any sort of defense at all? Harry knows Mab and what she would consider a breach of contract. He knows her probably better than any mortal alive.
--- End quote ---
Just saw this bit.
It depends on who's making the argument. Harry can fudge things; he can argue points of view and what he intended, and Mab might be inclined to see things his way, so long as he can argue it without embarrassing her. She might scold him for incompetence, but if he's still alive, he's still a useful asset for her going forward, which she might well invest her energy to defend.
If Harry is dead, I don't think Mab would think to use, "My Knight was incompetent" as an argument. If she knew Harry's actions were a ruse, her Fae nature would not let her say something she knew to be untrue. She would have to honestly believe that Harry was genuinely trying to kill Butters but failed. That's a story that nobody on the scene believed in the first place, so it's unlikely it'd fool Mab if she had been watching.
She'd also have to see a need to defend Harry posthumously. I don't think she would -- it depends on if her desire to get revenge on Nic outweighs her need to defend the world from Outsiders. I could see her being pragmatic enough to write off Dresden as a loss, bite her tongue and just ally with Nicodemus to get what she needs out of Hades.
If Harry tells the story, Mab can just nod along and say something nonspecific to "accept" his version of events. But it's not an argument I can see her putting forth herself.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Last, Mira - also just saw your post. A few things:
1. Butters is unconscious until Uriel shakes him awake. Presumably, Nicodemus is going about killing Murphy first. Maybe the reason Harry's still alive here is in order to tell Dresden to shoot Butters, so that when he refuses Nick can kill him without ambiguity once and for all.
--- End quote ---
But he didn't kill her did he? He beat the crap out of her and did his best to humiliate her in the process... He never intended to kill her, if he did, she'd be dead... The point remains if Butters was a danger to the operation before the event, he remains so afterwards.. But nothing happened to him.. Again, Nic needs Harry at that point for the mission, he doesn't want to wait around to Mab finds another suitable Knight.. He will kill him later which he tries to do when all is said and done..
--- Quote ---
Oh, drat, did I just answer my question to Mr. Death on the Genoskwa? Maybe. But if true, that would imply that this IS still somewhat of a ploy. Anyways...
--- End quote ---
Yes, it was a ploy, and it succeeded, things would have been very bad except Michael aided by the Grace of Uriel came out of retirement... Face it, that day evil won for a time, it happens... Making a lot of excuses for the good guys doesn't change the facts..
--- Quote ---2. Gen didn't release Harry until after the deal was made with Michael.
3. Again, Butters *is* a threat to the heist. Nick doesn't know that Marcone doesn't know about the heist, so it's presumed that if Butters squeals then the deal is off.
--- End quote ---
However neither did Geno kill Harry, even though Nic "orders" him to do so.. Nor does Nic reprimand him for not doing it... As I said, if Butters was a threat before, he continued to be a threat, yet he isn't killed, no contract is out for him.. He manages to return at the end to become a Holy Knight... You think if Nic knew any of that he'd allow the little doctor to live? I kind of doubt it, it says at the time Nic never saw him as a threat of any kind.
--- Quote ---Nicodemus isn't so much saying that Harry was never in danger as he's calling it a draw and backing off to come at him again later. What he's effectively saying is that if Harry tries to call off the deal now on the grounds of Nicodemus trying to kill him, Nicodemus can point out that Harry broke faith first and get him in trouble with Mab. They're at a stalemate at that point, and Nicodemus is content with that for the moment.
--- End quote ---
All legalese claptrap.... Because Nic never wanted the deal called off, but he wanted the Sword broken.. As he said the whole thing with Geno was to put pressure on Murphy... Nic wanted his cake and eat it too, and he more or less got that, he managed to set it up so a Sword got broken... Yet at the same time insured himself against anything that would jeopardize the deal.. As he said so sweetly that butter wouldn't melt in his mouth, why he never really intended to kill Harry, etc...
--- Quote ---I agree with you (mostly) on the inconsistencies with Gen's refusal to really do much other than hold Harry when Nick is beating the snot out of Karrin. But it's clear that when the sword is broken, that's not the end of it. Because the sword alone isn't Nick's only goal - he will take out Dresden and Murphy, if he can.
--- End quote ---
Not if, because if he really wanted to, no question it would have been done.. But a dead Murphy is more danger to him than a wounded and humiliated one.. Why? Because Nic still needed Harry, if he killed Murphy he'd have to kill Harry.. What do you think Harry would do to Nic if he killed Murphy? If Geno was supposed to take out Harry it would have happened in the first five seconds, or maybe as soon as the Sword was broken, didn't happen... Of course at some future time Nic will try to take out both Harry and Murphy, however that has nothing to do with what happened in front of Michael's house.
Mr. Death:
Mira:
--- Quote ---“Face it, Miss Murphy,” Nicodemus said, keeping pace with her. His shadow swarmed all over the ground around her, surrounding her. “Your heart”—the tip of his sword dipped toward it by way of illustration— “simply wasn’t in the right place.”
He paused there, long enough to give her time to see the sword thrust coming.
She faced him, her eyes fierce and frightened, her face pale with pain.
And the front door of the Carpenters’ house opened.
--- End quote ---
The text of the book clearly has Nicodemus literally seconds away from killing her, with a cheeky one-liner to boot.
He clearly, obviously intends to kill her right then and there. Your assertion that he never intended to kill Murphy is directly contradicted by the text.
And it's not "legalese claptrap." It's what he's saying as explicitly as you can expect.
He is directly saying that his "ploy" is the same exact thing as Harry's "participation in the chase."
He is explicitly, directly calling his ploy the same thing that he knows Harry is outright lying about.
iago:
This thread is triggering reports to moderators because people can't be civil with each other about their disagreements. I have no time to read the thread and judge the fitness of such complaints, so I'm just killing the thread now.
Grow up or leave, please.
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