The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote from: forumghost on August 28, 2017, 09:32:50 AM ---Not to Harry certainly. But if Nick kills Harry without unambiguous proof that he's breaking their contract, he'll care very much.
Because he'll have an angry Sidhe Queen breathing down his neck for the remainder of his very short life.
--- End quote ---
Not only that, but Harry is vital for getting through the Ice Gate.. Nic very much wants to get into that vault and steal the weapons..
--- Quote ---I disagree with your assertion. When karrin held the sword, it still shown with a Holy Light. I don't think that it would have done so if it was absolutely wrong for Karen to have held the sword. I think that she had a choice here, and she chose poorly. If she had chosen well, she would have been a knight, and we would have had a very different story.
--- End quote ---
That is a bit tricky but for the most part true, it may not even let the person touch it like it wouldn't let Susan in Death Masks, but that doesn't mean things cannot change as it did for her in Changes and she wielded Am to save her daughter.. Also the Sword will glow in the presence of it's foe as it did on Harry's back in Small Favor...
--- Quote ---It was not absolutely wrong and she was not the first knight who got her sword broken either. It was her choice to risk the sword and that was free will as well.
--- End quote ---
Is that WOJ? If so, quote please... If it is in the books, book, chapter,verse, please.. Yes, the Swords have been altered perhaps the last couple of thousand years, but that isn't the same as broken..
--- Quote ---Murphy fail as a knight. This is beyond dispute. As a custodian however, did she fail? or did she succeed?
--- End quote ---
Fail big time, she chose herself to wield a Sword and got it broken...
--- Quote ---However, the subsequent event is too convenient for team good. The broken sword is reforge. Not just simply reforge, it turn into something far more suited for the next true KoTC, which would be impossible if the sword is not broken first. It also pull Harry out from the predicament between saving Butters and fulfilling Mab's promise.
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The cynical would call that luck... What blows that argument is she didn't tuck away the Sword with the idea of "Oh well, if it get's broken because I fuck up big time with it, Harry and Butters and or someone else will that the faith and be desperate enough to remake it, and better too.." If that happened every day, then there wouldn't have been any point in Nic trying to take it out, which was his aim all along, has been all through the series, taking out one or more of the Holy
Swords.
--- Quote ---It is interesting to me looking at whom Heaven choose as the custodian. Original Merlin, Harry Dresden and Murphy. It is not a straight up good guy like Ft. Forthill, or a devout like Michael. These custodian are powerful people, and more importantly all of them are people who stand in the murky grey area between good and evil. All of them are active people. People who actively take actions that influence the course of destiny.
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Of that list, Murphy was NOT chosen as their custodian... She made herself their keeper and then brow beat and lied to Harry, the true custodian so she could keep them... Yes, I call it brow beating when she tells Harry she knows the Swords have moved on because she has faith and he doesn't.
--- Quote ---If Heaven wants a mere keeper, they should find people like Ft. Forthill. The sword will definitely be a lot safer that way.
--- End quote ---
That is the point, she was a mere keeper and the Swords turned out not to be safe with her.. She was in over her head and insecure about it, so it was easier to put on an act about being their custodian now..
--- Quote ---It is entirely possible that the custodian is meant to use the sword in a way that a KoTC cannot. Using the sword as a gambling chip for example, or breaking a sword to save people. A KoTC can't do such things, but sometimes such things are nescesary. In book 10, using the sword as a gambling chip saved Ivy and probably the world from Nuclear Armageddon. In book 15, fid's breaking and Murphy's heavy injury satisfy the quid pro quo nescesary to bail Butters out, else the cost may be Harry's wintery crusifiction instead. And since this involve Hades and the 4 mysterious artifact in the underworld armory, fid's breaking possibly avoid a lot of cosmic scale complication.
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No, while true, Harry did use the Sword as a bargaining chip for Ivy which may have stretched things a bit, but apparently with in his rights to do so... Or you can argue that being appointed custodian doesn't take away free will, he is free to fuck up as custodian as well as not.. Whether or not Fid went on the mission didn't matter at all, having a Knight on the mission was a good thing, but the thing making or breaking the mission was mainly Mr Grey being an undercover agent.. In the end it came down to the true custodian, Harry making the right choice at the right time... Only this time it did indeed take a bit more faith on his part...
Arjan:
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on August 28, 2017, 10:17:30 AM ---It is entirely possible that the custodian is meant to use the sword in a way that a KoTC cannot. Using the sword as a gambling chip for example, or breaking a sword to save people. A KoTC can't do such things, but sometimes such things are nescesary. In book 10, using the sword as a gambling chip saved Ivy and probably the world from Nuclear Armageddon. In book 15, fid's breaking and Murphy's heavy injury satisfy the quid pro quo nescesary to bail Butters out, else the cost may be Harry's wintery crusifiction instead. And since this involve Hades and the 4 mysterious artifact in the underworld armory, fid's breaking possibly avoid a lot of cosmic scale complication.
It is a food for thought.
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It is certainly the reason Uriel is so involved with the swords lately. He is the angel to be sent out for that kind of thing.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 28, 2017, 06:15:25 AM ---.
I'm sorry, but you are really, really wrong here. Throughout the entire book, Nicodemus and Harry always talk about how actions would be perceived by mab. If Harry's act of defending Butters automatically means that he broke Mab's word and broke the contract between them, Nick would have easily killed him and butters without even saying a word when they approach to Michael's house.
This is why I karrin asks Harry in the SUV whether or not they've blown their cover, and Harry says that they're still bad guys. This is why Harry makes absolutely sure that Nick attacks him in the vault, even endangering himself, just to make sure that Nicodemus absolutely pulls the first punch. This is why there's so much back and forth about what mab would perceive and whether or not she would think something is a betrayal or is simply up to interpretation. Your glossing over this very complex issue just to make sure that it fits your argument, but it's not working.
Just to be clear, Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards. Mab, in Queen of Faerie, has thousands of little folk everywhere in the real world who can report to her exactly what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if she herself was watching over these events. It's her interpretation that matters, not Nick's. And Mab is a person who upholds the letter of the law, and is okay with ignoring the spirit of it. That's why you can blast a fae lord into frozen chunks during a birthday party and be perfectly fine, because you technically did not spill any blood. Remember: Mab -wants- Nick to be "skinned alive" from this Game. If there's anything ambiguous about Harry's betrayal or if it can be chalked up to incompetence, Mab will absolutely do it and screw Nick over.
Holy crap, yes. This. That makes so much sense.
--- End quote ---
Not automatically, no.
If Harry just let things be and allow Nick to capture Butters, Harry will be scott free from any obligation. In this case, fid won't get broken, but Butters will have to die and Harry probably will have to watch it happened in exchange. All Harry need to do is do nothing.
That's option 1.
Option 2. Harry help Butters secretly and hope beyond hope he is not discovered and Butters can escape into Michael home before Nick can catch Harry in this act of treachery.
Harry did just that and he fail. He get caught. Thankfully, Harry is not caught red handed. Harry is smart enough to disguise helping Butters as a convenient incompotency. Nick knew, Harry knew, Mab knew, but Mab will most likely lawyer herself and Harry out of this problem in a blink. Which is why Nick does not mention it. He knew it is not enough.
The problem is Harry and Butters is caught in front of Michael's home, with Nick in the front and Genoskwa behind. Now, if Harry follow what Nick demand and actually surrenders Butters to Nick, he'll go scott free again, but that mean coming back to option 1.
Harry was about to threw everything away and fight Nick openly, which will definitely break Mab's promise beyond a doubt when Murphy come to the rescue. Murphy draw fid and attack Nick. Note that as Harry's + 1, Murphy's action reflect on Harry. Attacking Nick already broke the truce, but still, Mab probably could scratch that up as a mere scuffle. No one get hurt after all. No harm no fowl. Nick is still bound by the deal at this time, note that though Nick and the genoskwa stand there threateningly, they does not touch Harry or Murphy. Nick makes absolutely sure that his hands is clean.
Nick knows this, so he offered Harry a way out by surrendering Butters. It is at this point when Harry truly broke the deal by shooting Butters over the carpenter's fence. He is obligated to help Nick and Nick specifically ordered him to surrender Butters, but Harry do exactly the opposite right in front of Nicodemous. At this point Nick already have a free hand. which is why the moment Harry forzare Butters over the fence, all sorts of things happens at once. The Genoswa move, Nick pull out a gun and shoot Murphy, because at this point the truce is truly broken by Harry.
Fortunately, Nick is aiming for fidellacchius first and Harry later. That is why he does not just told the Genoskwa to crush Harry's head. Nick use Harry to unbalance Murphy and he succeeded, injuring Murphy in the process. He is free to kill Harry afterwards, but Michael offer him a more delicious bait and Nick get hook. We know the result afterwards. Murphy's injury is considered the quid pro quo for Harry secretly helping Butters behind Nick's back.
If Murphy does not take fid out, either Butters or Harry or both will have to die to resolve the situation. Don't even mention the ice gate. With Harry breaking the truce, Mab will be obligated to compensate even if she has to go down to Hades personally to help Nick.
DonBugen:
--- Quote --- Then how can they be saved? And why do the fallen in the coins bother with them?
--- End quote ---
OK, both of those questions are taking what I had said out of context. Let me re-phrase.
The free will that Nicodemus and Tessa have does not give them the ability to touch Michael’s house. This is why the two must stand on the sidewalk while their vanilla mortal goons open fire. That’s why Nicodemus has to pull Tessa’s hand back when she almost retaliates onto the yard. If Nick and Tessa could stand to the side and even shoot guns at the yard, they wouldn’t need goons. That is a border they cannot cross. To do so would invite retailiation.
--- Quote --- Just like the angels have to wait ineffectively sometimes. And we still do not know exactly how the rules work, they have plot clauses I suspect.
--- End quote ---
If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you’re suggesting that they just wait because they have to wait, and we don’t know why they wait and we can’t infer the answers from all of the evidence – it’s just some sort of arbitrary rule designed to fit the plot.
I disagree. I think that we have substantial evidence from the way that Nicodemus, Tessa, and Grey respond, plus the way that Binder and Bob and the Toungueless Goon Squad responds, to infer what would happen if Nicodemus reached onto Michael’s property with his will in order to retrieve something, even his coin.
Besides – if Nick and Tessa and Grey are all pretty darn sure that stepping onto that property would invite angelic retaliation, what on earth means that Anduriel would be safe if his vessel entered into that area?
--- Quote --- They can block the summoning with the box and holy hankie thing. It is all part of the rules.
The coin laying in the grass is not the same thing.
--- End quote ---
Wait, what rules? I thought you said we couldn’t know how the rules work? Now you know how they work?
If you believe that a blessed handkerchief is able to prevent Nicodemus from retrieving his coin better than a dozen angels tasked to destroy any force they perceive as malevolent from entering their area of guardianship, then please, give us some sort of evidence. These are two different forces that are powered by and governed by the same force, and I’ve provided logical arguments as to why it wouldn’t work. If an inanimate object that is blessed with God’s will is able to protect it better than twelve active and focused beings doing that will, which are also powerful enough to destroy planets when on-mission, cannot – you need to provide some sort of evidence to back up such a claim.
So far, all you’ve stated is that Dresden could have used Lashiel’s instruction to magically reach past Dresden’s wards and the circle of protection in order to yoink the coin. But it’s not Michael’s fence or his threshold that is the danger here; the angels aren’t a ward to get past. They’re an active force and will act on anything that is inside their area of guardianship.
--- Quote --- Which it did for Harry too in small favor. Karen gave it a try and the sword did its best maybe it could have succeeded but....
--- End quote ---
Um. Well. Yes, you can argue that the sword did shine while Harry was holding it in Small Favor, but with reflected firelight. Not with holy light.
--- Quote ---I took two steps forward, ignoring Michael, and drew the sword from its sheath. Fidelacchius was a classic chisel-tipped katana, encased in what looked like an old wooden walking cane. I kept the blade clean and oiled while it was in my care. It came free of its casing without a sound and gleamed coldly in the violet light of the fire.
--
Murphy’s fingers closed around the hilt of the holy blade. She drew it maybe an inch from the scabbard. White light blinded me, blinded Deidre, blinded Murphy, blinded Thomas, blinded everyone.
--- End quote ---
This is the same light that is in Skin Game when Murphy holds the sword. It’s described as glowing blue, up until the moment that she chooses to use the sword selfishly.
--- Quote --- “Damn you!” Karrin snarled. Her hips and shoulders twisted to deliver the lethal slash. The light of the blade died away as abruptly as an unplugged lamp. The thrum of power that resonated through the very air vanished.
--- End quote ---
So no – Karrin still could have made the right choice. Dresden even sees the trap and tries to warn her before, though the Genoskwa prevents him from speaking.
--- Quote --- Again you are talking about how she performed as a knight while I was talking about her decision to pick up the sword in the first place with all her doubts about being proper knight material. Both the decision and the doubts were correct in my opinion.
--- End quote ---
I agree that it’s not a great idea to take up the sword if there were any doubts. If Dresden was custodian and offered her the sword, asking for her oath to uphold all that the Knights do, she would have either refused it or have made the decision to uphold the code earlier, and not have been so easily manipulated by Nicodemus. But she still had the choice here. She could have made the right one and put her faith in TWG, and she didn’t.
--- Quote --- And miss the chance of even getting more out of it? Harry was getting himself into problems quite nicely.
--- End quote ---
OK, so if Nick is just holding out in order to get a chance of destroying a sword, which he didn’t even know would be in play until Karrin pulls it out, then what else is he holding out for after he puts Murphy down? Why didn’t Nick say, “OK, Gen, now REALLY crush his skull.”?
Nick can harm Karrin because Karrin attacked him, but she didn’t do so on Dresden’s orders. Her actions and choices were her own. And when Nick tells Harry to “call off your dog before I put her down” he tells him to end the little doctor and things can go back to normal. Harry finds a way out by seemingly attempting to end Butters and failing, which is how they get into Nick’s next ploy.
--- Quote --- Nicodemus will say what suits him. That is what he always does, that is his nature. Even if it bites him in the ass later.
--- End quote ---
Um, let me re-phrase again. Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards and expect Mab to agree to his version of events and give him another Winter Knight. And where is this “his nature is to say whatever he wants, even if it bites him in the ass later” thing coming from? Nicodemus is a schemer and a plotter, every move he makes considers the likely consequences and long-term results of his actions. Him killing Dresden and claiming that Dresden betrayed him, even though he offered Nick no violence, fought the stone lion, fired magic at a fleeing target and blasted said target with the same amount of kinetic force as a 55 MPH truck? No. Dresden stuck to the letter of the agreement. Nick is in the same position that Harry is in later at Hades’ vault – if Nick wants to justly kill Dresden, he has to provoke Dresden to attack outright, which could not be misconstrued as anything other than a betrayal of the agreement.
--- Quote --- It would not matter if you were dead.
--- End quote ---
I do not understand this argument. It does not make sense in the context of what I was saying. Do you disagree that it is Mab’s interpretation of events that ultimately matters?
--- Quote --- Nick knows this, so he offered Harry a way out by surrendering Butters. It is at this point when Harry truly broke the deal by shooting Butters over the carpenter's fence. He is obligated to help Nick and Nick specifically ordered him to surrender Butters, but Harry do exactly the opposite right in front of Nicodemous. At this point Nick already have a free hand. which is why the moment Harry forzare Butters over the fence, all sorts of things happens at once. The Genoswa move, Nick pull out a gun and shoot Murphy, because at this point the truce is truly broken by Harry.
--- End quote ---
I disagree; if the truce was truly broken at this point, then why would Harry have phrased his attack by saying first, “Sorry, Butters, nothing personal” before blasting him in the chest? Directly before this, Nick does not call for Harry to surrender Butters; he calls for him to end him. Forzare is primarily used as an attack spell. Dresden and Mab can certainly lawyer that Harry did attempt to end Butters; he just did a particularly incompetent job of it. The reason that everything moved when it did was because Nick suddenly lost one point of leverage, and needed to gain another – instead of threatening Butters’ life, he threatens Harry’s.
And from earlier… forgot to respond to this one; sorry.
--- Quote --- Uriel does not think human life that important anyway, the soul is more important.
Their souls are saved and for Uriel that is the most important point but Karen took the sword to save a loved one.
--- End quote ---
OK, chew on this. In The Dresden Files, we *know* that there’s an afterlife. We know that the soul, the true core of a person’s being, is eternal and lives onward. We know from Harry’s specific experience that the act of dying is not necessarily a horrible experience, and that there are other things onward. And we know from Deidre’s fate that there are some really, really horrible ways that you can spend all of eternity.
If that was the case… why wouldn’t the state of the soul be far more important than a person’s life? Compared to eternity? Absolutely, it is worth risking a life to save a soul. To paraphrase Harry in Proven Guilty – everybody dies. What matters is, what are you going to do with the time you have?
Life and death are certainly important, but we mortals on this side of life have a very one-sided, limited perspective. Death is not an end, but a change, and a beginning of sorts in the Dresden Files.
DonBugen:
Just to cement that this whole “Harry broke the contract when he hit Butters with Forzare” thing that’s being argued. Dresden literally says that Mab would interpret his protection of Butters as bad luck and sincere incompetence. Why is this being argued? Just because Nick makes it look like they’re fighting in order to get Murphy and Dresden to attack, doesn’t mean that he’s actually trying to kill Dresden. This is a complex game in order to get one person to break the contract first.
--- Quote ---“I’ve kept my word,” Nicodemus said. “Now, it’s your tur-“
“The hell you have,” I spat. “You just ordered your goon to kill me. You’ve broken your contract with Mab.”
Nicodemus shifted his gaze to me and looked amused. “That?” he said. “Goodness, Dresden, can you not recognize a ploy when you see one?”
“What ploy?” I demanded.
“I needed to put a little pressure on Ms. Murphy,” he said. “But you were never in any actual danger. Do you honestly think it would take the Genoskwa more than a few seconds to crack even a skull so thick as yours?” He smiled widely, clearly enjoying himself. “Why, it was no more an attempt to kill you than was your participation in the little doctor a betrayal of Mab’s word that you would aid me.”
Damn it. Nothing like a little pro-forma quid pro quo action. By Mab’s reckoning, I was pretty sure Nicodemus and I had played this one out evenly. My actions in protecting Butters could be explained as bad luck and sincere incompetence. Nicodemus’ attempt to kill me could be explained as a ploy to destroy the sword.
…
I ground my teeth and said, “You attacked Murphy.”
“I warned you that I could not guarantee her safety,” he said in a reasonable tone. “And in any case, she initiated the attack, if you recall. And she’s not dead just yet.” He showed me white teeth. “I’d say that I’ve been more than reasonable, and so would your liege.”
Again, he was right. By Mab’s reckoning, he was indeed a reasonable man.
--- End quote ---
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