The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 28, 2017, 04:32:11 AM ---But she totally failed to keep a Holy Sword safe... Yes, it is the custodian's duty to see that the Swords are kept safe and deployed properly in the hands of the right wielder... She totally failed, because after declaring why she shouldn't wield a Holy Sword, she chose to hide it and bring it along when she went with Harry.. Point, feeling the way she did, she wasn't the right person to wield a Sword.. Her personal feelings shouldn't enter into it.. You can state that as her excuse, but it still says she was a total failure... No, Harry was never in any real danger, it was a ploy by Nic to get her to attack him, so the Sword would be broken.. Nic still needed Harry to get to the weapons in the vault.. Even if he could squirm his way out of his agreement with Mab with some cock and bull story, he still wanted in the vault.. So no, he never intended to kill Harry.. So Murphy attacked to save Harry, but he only appeared to be in danger, in truth, he never was... Nic wasn't lying to her as he beat the shit out of her.Only because of Harry's faith... Not hers, and if Harry had no faith and didn't chose to toss the hilt when he did, the Sword would still be broken.. Murphy didn't chose to break a Sword to make something better, no one knew that would happen.. It is a nice rationalization..
In my opinion she wasn't acting as a Knight... She brought the Sword, it reacted to Nic in a fight, it levels the playing field.. Just as it lit up on Harry's back on the island back in Small Favor, though Harry said at the time, he is no Knight. Murphy didn't take the Sword with her as a Knight, she just took it.She had the Swords in her possession, but she was never their custodian, there is a difference. She was qualified to be Knight that one night at C.I. I think if she is the one needed for the job and accepted, she could be a Knight again for the length of time needed..
But he knew enough than to try and wield it himself as a Knight or just as a wizard..
Perhaps because they need to be kept in civilian hands, more free choices maybe.
But Heaven didn't, Fid was passed to Harry to keep until the right person came along.. Michael never questioned it, and in turn when he retired handed Am over to Harry as well..Something like that.Actually we do not know that, as Con pointed out Harry did try to give Hannah a way out very much as a true Knight would.. However she rejected him choosing Lasciel and her vengence instead, and he had to kill her to save the mission.. He didn't judge her like Murphy judged Nic... If anything Harry felt guilt because he couldn't save her, and Michael had to get him to buck up...
--- End quote ---
which is why her qualification as a custodian is revoked afterwards and returned to Harry, but that is after she make the mistake, not before.
The point I want to make is this: Just because a person does not want and does not have the qualification to be a knight, he or she does not automatically unqualified as a custodian, which is the point of your opinion which I find disagreeable.
Murphy not wanting to be a knight has nothing to do with her taking fid with her during SG and choosing to wield it herself. There is no Hipocracy there, because the desire to save people like Nicodemous is completely not required. As a custodian, she has the right to do so at the time, regardless or not she wish to save denarians or kill them. Free will is like that, or it will be empty talk.
She also has the right to appoint herself the temporary wielder of the sword, though Her choice to wield the sword herself turn out to be a mistake, and she suffers the consequences for it on her own. She got injured and her custodianship is revoke. Whether or not this consequences is a punishment or a reward however, is up to your own interpretation. For me, the consequences Murphy gotten are mostly rewards + a bit of a reprimand.
Do you really think that every single knight who are deemed worthy by the sword and heaven will not be tempted? The they never fail? If that is the case, Nick won't bother trying to make people misuse the sword. Nick tried it on Harry during book 10. He tried it on Murphy in SG and he tried it on Michael during SG as well. If only those wielder that is not appointed by heaven could fail, Nick would not have use this particular move every single time, not to mentioned that it completely violates the free will principal if it is true. Even cassius use this move during book 5. It is probably the greatest cliché move a denarian could take against a KoTC. Like many people said "It wont become a cliché if it isn't effective"
Granted, the only person we saw get tricked is only Murphy. Harry too, if you want to count what happened in book 3 with Lea, but unless the free will principal is false, it is impossible that there never has been a knight or a custodian who fail their duty for the last 2000 years.
Failing does not mean you were never chosen or you were never worthy. It just mean you are human and you need to work harder and improve yourself.
DonBugen:
--- Quote ---It is just calling the coin. According to Lasciel Harry could have done so through his walls and wards and concrete and circle and so on. I do not think the angels would have interfered, they would have interfered with his free willed choice to doom himself
--- End quote ---
.
A free-will Act of a mortal does not apply to a Denarian. That's why Nick and Tessa have to wait outside, ineffective. Besides, what kind of protection do you think that the church can offer other than a guardianship of angels hovering over it? I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense.
--- Quote ---I think you missed the point of my post. Karen has never been optimal knight material and she knew it. It was not about how she should have acted as a knight, it was about picking up the sword in the first place.
--- End quote ---
I disagree with your assertion. When karrin held the sword, it still shown with a Holy Light. I don't think that it would have done so if it was absolutely wrong for Karen to have held the sword. I think that she had a choice here, and she chose poorly. If she had chosen well, she would have been a knight, and we would have had a very different story.
--- Quote ---By trying to save Butters from Nicodemus.
That is what he said after the fight. Nicodemus says what suits him. He could have said something different after killing Harry.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry, but you are really, really wrong here. Throughout the entire book, Nicodemus and Harry always talk about how actions would be perceived by mab. If Harry's act of defending Butters automatically means that he broke Mab's word and broke the contract between them, Nick would have easily killed him and butters without even saying a word when they approach to Michael's house.
This is why I karrin asks Harry in the SUV whether or not they've blown their cover, and Harry says that they're still bad guys. This is why Harry makes absolutely sure that Nick attacks him in the vault, even endangering himself, just to make sure that Nicodemus absolutely pulls the first punch. This is why there's so much back and forth about what mab would perceive and whether or not she would think something is a betrayal or is simply up to interpretation. Your glossing over this very complex issue just to make sure that it fits your argument, but it's not working.
Just to be clear, Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards. Mab, in Queen of Faerie, has thousands of little folk everywhere in the real world who can report to her exactly what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if she herself was watching over these events. It's her interpretation that matters, not Nick's. And Mab is a person who upholds the letter of the law, and is okay with ignoring the spirit of it. That's why you can blast a fae lord into frozen chunks during a birthday party and be perfectly fine, because you technically did not spill any blood. Remember: Mab -wants- Nick to be "skinned alive" from this Game. If there's anything ambiguous about Harry's betrayal or if it can be chalked up to incompetence, Mab will absolutely do it and screw Nick over.
--- Quote ---It is clear to me that a custodian is a strategic post which someone sneaky like Urieal created because a knight is far too rigid in their conduct and lacks flexibility in the face of unpredictable and fluctuating circumstances.
--- End quote ---
Holy crap, yes. This. That makes so much sense.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 28, 2017, 06:15:25 AM ---.
A free-will Act of a mortal does not apply to a Denarian.
--- End quote ---
Then how can they be saved? And why do the fallen in the coins bother with them?
--- Quote ---That's why Nick and Tessa have to wait outside, ineffective.
--- End quote ---
Just like the angels have to wait ineffectively sometimes. And we still do not know exactly how the rules work, they have plot clauses I suspect.
--- Quote ---Besides, what kind of protection do you think that the church can offer other than a guardianship of angels hovering over it? I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense.
--- End quote ---
They can block the summoning with the box and holy hankie thing. It is all part of the rules.
The coin laying in the grass is not the same thing.
--- Quote --- I disagree with your assertion. When karrin held the sword, it still shown with a Holy Light.
--- End quote ---
Which it did for Harry too in small favor. Karen gave it a try and the sword did its best maybe it could have succeeded but....
--- Quote ---I don't think that it would have done so if it was absolutely wrong for Karen to have held the sword.
--- End quote ---
It was not absolutely wrong and she was not the first knight who got her sword broken either. It was her choice to risk the sword and that was free will as well.
--- Quote ---I think that she had a choice here, and she chose poorly. If she had chosen well, she would have been a knight, and we would have had a very different story.
--- End quote ---
I think she would have returned it.
Again you are talking about how she performed as a knight while I was talking about her decision to pick up the sword in the first place with all her doubts about being proper knight material. Both the decision and the doubts were correct in my opinion.
--- Quote ---I'm sorry, but you are really, really wrong here. Throughout the entire book, Nicodemus and Harry always talk about how actions would be perceived by mab. If Harry's act of defending Butters automatically means that he broke Mab's word and broke the contract between them, Nick would have easily killed him and butters without even saying a word when they approach to Michael's house.
--- End quote ---
And miss the chance of even getting more out of it? Harry was getting himself into problems quite nicely.
--- Quote ---This is why I karrin asks Harry in the SUV whether or not they've blown their cover, and Harry says that they're still bad guys. This is why Harry makes absolutely sure that Nick attacks him in the vault, even endangering himself, just to make sure that Nicodemus absolutely pulls the first punch. This is why there's so much back and forth about what mab would perceive and whether or not she would think something is a betrayal or is simply up to interpretation. Your glossing over this very complex issue just to make sure that it fits your argument, but it's not working.
Just to be clear, Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards.
--- End quote ---
Nicodemus will say what suits him. That is what he always does, that is his nature. Even if it bites him in the ass later.
--- Quote --- Mab, in Queen of Faerie, has thousands of little folk everywhere in the real world who can report to her exactly what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if she herself was watching over these events. It's her interpretation that matters, not Nick's. And Mab is a person who upholds the letter of the law, and is okay with ignoring the spirit of it. That's why you can blast a fae lord into frozen chunks during a birthday party and be perfectly fine, because you technically did not spill any blood. Remember: Mab -wants- Nick to be "skinned alive" from this Game. If there's anything ambiguous about Harry's betrayal or if it can be chalked up to incompetence, Mab will absolutely do it and screw Nick over.
--- End quote ---
It would not matter if you were dead.
forumghost:
Not to Harry certainly. But if Nick kills Harry without unambiguous proof that he's breaking their contract, he'll care very much.
Because he'll have an angry Sidhe Queen breathing down his neck for the remainder of his very short life.
huangjimmy108:
Murphy fail as a knight. This is beyond dispute. As a custodian however, did she fail? or did she succeed?
On the surface, she definitely fail. One of the main duty of a custodian is to keep the sword safe and deploy them as nescesary. Since Murphy deploy fid and end up breaking it, she definitely fail.
However, the subsequent event is too convenient for team good. The broken sword is reforge. Not just simply reforge, it turn into something far more suited for the next true KoTC, which would be impossible if the sword is not broken first. It also pull Harry out from the predicament between saving Butters and fulfilling Mab's promise.
If the custodian is simply a keeper, a mere guard + quartermaster for the KoTC, Murphy definitely fail. But what if the custodian is not just a keeper, but some kind of a shadow knight instead.
It is interesting to me looking at whom Heaven choose as the custodian. Original Merlin, Harry Dresden and Murphy. It is not a straight up good guy like Ft. Forthill, or a devout like Michael. These custodian are powerful people, and more importantly all of them are people who stand in the murky grey area between good and evil. All of them are active people. People who actively take actions that influence the course of destiny.
If Heaven wants a mere keeper, they should find people like Ft. Forthill. The sword will definitely be a lot safer that way.
It is entirely possible that the custodian is meant to use the sword in a way that a KoTC cannot. Using the sword as a gambling chip for example, or breaking a sword to save people. A KoTC can't do such things, but sometimes such things are nescesary. In book 10, using the sword as a gambling chip saved Ivy and probably the world from Nuclear Armageddon. In book 15, fid's breaking and Murphy's heavy injury satisfy the quid pro quo nescesary to bail Butters out, else the cost may be Harry's wintery crusifiction instead. And since this involve Hades and the 4 mysterious artifact in the underworld armory, fid's breaking possibly avoid a lot of cosmic scale complication.
It is a food for thought.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version