The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 29, 2017, 10:21:53 AM ---It's a mistake to think that Mab doesn't have eyes on everything going on? Argue with this.
1. Little folk are everywhere. Like, freaking everywhere.
2. Harry has demonstrated numerous times that they can be bribed and relied upon to give a basic "this happened then this happened then this happened" report.
3. They also can't lie.
4. Mab is a Queen of Faerie. She already has demonstrated through interference with Toot and Lacuna that they defer to her will.
So what on earth makes you think that, if Harry's not there to defend himself, that somehow Mab is forced to accept her Knight's murderer's version of events, just because Harry isn't around to argue it? Why wouldnt she use the same argument of bad luck and gross incompetence?
I'm pretty sure that would make Nicodemus seem more guilty, not less.
So when she and Harry talk about the swords before joining the evil league of evil, that would be a great point for her to act on her newfound convictions and say, "Hey, by the way, you can have 'em back whenever. I'll tell you where they are in a more secure place." And yes, Harry doesn't ask for them back. If he ever wants Karrin to give them back, one way to NOT convince her is to ask, "Hey, can I have the swords now?" every time they meet. Sheesh.
What? Are you serious?
Ok, Michael expresses misgivings five years after seeing Dresden touch the coin. His main sin against Dresden is that he's been giving him funny looks. He trusts Dresden to have a one-on-one with Nick several times and to manage pretty much everything that's happening in SF. NOT TO MENTION that he's trusting Harry to closely mentor his oldest daughter in the same arts that he believes Harry must give up to be free of the shadow. His conversation with him at the edge of PG prove that he still trusts Harry to find a worthy recipient of the sword. And when Harry calls Michael out on his misgivings, Michael listens.
Flipside: on Harry's first day of being on duty as the Winter Knight, Karrin tells him that she's taken the Swords and won't give them back and that it's to protect them against Harry turning into a monster. Just because shevs been up front with this does not mean that she trusts Harry not to become a monster, and certainly not more than a man who has trusted Harry with the swords for five freaking years.
Look, I'm not trying to say that if Harry had followed this plan, everything would have been sunshine, daffodils, and butterflies. I don't know that. No one knows that. I'm even willing to admit that it could take some sort of miracle-level of intervention to get their butts out. But that's exactly what happens when the Knights of the cross trust in their God and make the best choices. I'm simply trying to say here that you can't say that Murphy only had one choice, and that was to make the sword vulnerable. Making the sword vulnerable and did absolutely nothing to help them.
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It is precisely because Mab has eyes everywhere and she cannot lie which going to be the problem. She knew Harry is helping Butters, something she is not suppose to do. If things does come to some kind of a hearing, Mab cannot lie, she must admit that Harry did do monkey business and break a deal make in good faith. That is what I mean by order. Mab has to be honest with herself, no self deception for the fae. There is no such thing like arguing that it is an accident, not for Mab. Harry can, but Mab cannot.
What Harry is doing is to make things murky enough so Mab don't need to make an appearance.
Harry helping Butters secretly and making a show is trivial enough to be swept under the rug. He directly refusing a direct order is far to big and obvious.
This is why Mab need a mortal knight to do her bidding. Why she does not just send another sidhe. Because sidhe can't lie, and can't do self deception. Something like tricking the winter mantle by some flimsy excuse that Butters is Harry's territory? Things like that Mab can't do, but Harry can. Things like pretending that forzaring Butters is a honest attempt from Harry to kill Butters? if you ask Mab, Mab cannot rationalize that. It is not in her nature. The word "Bad luck" and "incompetence" is not in her dictionary. She will have to tell the truth. Well, unless Mab is infected and able to lie like Maeve, but that will be a different can of worms.
As for Murphy. Yes, she could mention returning the sword back to Harry anytime after CD. Could, but not must. Though the chances is not as ample as you might think. As we know Harry is isolated in the island and the opportunity for such an important discussion is very limited between CD and SG.
This has nothing to do with trust. Trust go both ways. Once Harry let things go and allow Murphy to held the swords, he should trust Murphy to handle it. Asking only Murphy to demonstrate trust is entirely unbalance. Harry understand this. Which is why in SG, Harry ask Murphy is she considering to bring the sword into play. He does not demand, order, or interrogate. He ask, politely, because Harry already left things in Murphy's hands. The arrangement is finalize between them. Harry agrees, Murphy agrees and nobody complains. That is solid fact.
It is an option, not an obligation, the same as when Harry keep some cards close to the chest. Murphy does not keep asking or keep hoping that Harry will tell her everything. Once the arrangement is made and agreed upon, everyone must have faith that the other will do their part to the best of their abilities. That is trust.
And hey, if Harry himself has no complaint, who are we to say anything otherwise?
DonBugen:
--- Quote --- It is precisely because Mab has eyes everywhere and she cannot lie which going to be the problem. She knew Harry is helping Butters, something she is not suppose to do. If things does come to some kind of a hearing, Mab cannot lie, she must admit that Harry did do monkey business and break a deal make in good faith. That is what I mean by order. Mab has to be honest with herself, no self deception for the fae. There is no such thing like arguing that it is an accident, not for Mab. Harry can, but Mab cannot.
--- End quote ---
How is it that Mab can tell Harry in Cold Days that Harry had basically twisted and turned Molly from an innocent little girl into basically being his devoted servant, exactly what DuMorne almost did, in order to justify her actions and still not be lying? Because there’s many different ways that the truth can be perceived. What Mab does not know, cannot know, is Harry’s true intentions. No one can know that for sure. This means that there’s a level of ambiguity here. Besides, Mab clearly thinks that Harry’s methods are at times incompetent – she makes as much clear in the beginning of SG.
Just to lawyer things out a bit, just to make things a bit of a headache: Nick gave no specific time limit. He told Dresden to end the little doctor and return to headquarters. These words do not imply that one must be taken care of before the other; that would be “end the little doctor and then return to headquarters." The fact that Harry moved Butters out of Nick’s influence does not mean that Harry cannot still end him that night, or the next night, or ninety years from now when Butters already lies dying in a hospital bed. Yes, this is a weak argument, but it is still true. By the letter of the agreement, Harry did not break the contract yet. Legally speaking, this would only happen if Dresden outright refused to kill Butters, if Nick gave a specific time period in which to do it in, or if Butters died before Harry could off him. And it is the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law, that Mab cares about.
There is precedent for this. When Harry summons Toot, especially in the first books, he has to be specific about time periods and try not to fall asleep, because Toot could consider their contract fulfilled if he reported back to Harry far in the future, or while Harry was sleeping. These kinds of details matter to the fae.
True, Nicodemus does not know that Mab is hell-bent on seeing him burn. He knows that she has no respect for him (per their meeting in the beginning of SG) and can’t think that she’s particularly fond of him after he basically spat all over her accords. So I think that he would want to make sure that if things did get all murdery, that it would look much more like a cut-and-dry, black-and-white situation. That doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that one puts up to chance.
--- Quote --- This is why Mab need a mortal knight to do her bidding. Why she does not just send another sidhe. Because sidhe can't lie, and can't do self deception.
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Um, no – actually, the books clearly state that Mab needs a Knight because she herself can’t kill an unaffiliated mortal. That’s why the Winter Knight is cheerfully referred to as Mab’s hitman.
--- Quote --- The word "Bad luck" and "incompetence" is not in her dictionary.
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Well…
--- Quote ---”I’ll fulfill commands; I’ve done it before.”
“In your own inept way, yes.” Mab said.
--- End quote ---
OK. So, not incompetent. Inept. It’s pretty clear that Mab thinks that, though Harry’s actions get results, that he’s got a pretty screwy way of getting the job done. And if her own knight gets killed in the process, I’m pretty sure that she would believe that Harry was inept.
--- Quote --- As for Murphy. Yes, she could mention returning the sword back to Harry anytime after CD. Could, but not must. Though the chances is not as ample as you might think. As we know Harry is isolated in the island and the opportunity for such an important discussion is very limited between CD and SG.
This has nothing to do with trust. Trust go both ways. Once Harry let things go and allow Murphy to held the swords, he should trust Murphy to handle it. Asking only Murphy to demonstrate trust is entirely unbalance. Harry understand this. Which is why in SG, Harry ask Murphy is she considering to bring the sword into play. He does not demand, order, or interrogate. He ask, politely, because Harry already left things in Murphy's hands. The arrangement is finalize between them. Harry agrees, Murphy agrees and nobody complains. That is solid fact.
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Those are all good points. I could see Murphy intending on returning the swords, but the time just doesn’t seem to present itself. It seems a bit of a stretch, especially after they find out that Sanya’s on the other side of the world and it doesn’t seem likely that another knight will appear that she would ‘forget’ to let Harry know that she decided to relinquish her control of the swords, but yeah, I’ll agree to that. It’s certainly possible, and things are hectic and crazy enough in Skin Game.
As for Harry being totally cool and having no complaints about Murph, and the implication that he didn’t just surrender them to her to hold out of his grasp, but to be the new de-facto distributor of swords and appointer of knights… yeah… not so sure about that. Sure, he complied with her wishes in Cold Days, but Karrin used a lot of passive aggression, pre-emptive control, and subtle shame to get him to see her way. I’m in the camp that believes that she was not acting like a friend to Dresden in this, and her viewpoint of him colored his own personal viewpoint of himself: someone who is no longer worthy to have the sword. Karrin was acting like a cop to a perp, not a friend to a friend.
Mr. Death’s already done an excellent job arguing against my point of view on this subject, and I believe that this is largely a point of opinion; not something that can be proven either way. I’m speaking from my personal experience after seeing many people in real life use these exact same tactics to get control of others and shame them into doing their will. This is an “agree to disagree” point to me, and so unless you have some sort of evidence that hasn’t already been brought up, I’m cool with us having differing opinions on this.
Mira:
--- Quote ---As for Harry being totally cool and having no complaints about Murph, and the implication that he didn’t just surrender them to her to hold out of his grasp, but to be the new de-facto distributor of swords and appointer of knights… yeah… not so sure about that. Sure, he complied with her wishes in Cold Days, but Karrin used a lot of passive aggression, pre-emptive control, and subtle shame to get him to see her way. I’m in the camp that believes that she was not acting like a friend to Dresden in this, and her viewpoint of him colored his own personal viewpoint of himself: someone who is no longer worthy to have the sword. Karrin was acting like a cop to a perp, not a friend to a friend.
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Thank you again, you have exactly described how Murphy treated Harry, "cop to perp," something she is trained in and totally experienced in, but at the same time acted as "friend." She got by with it because Harry was already feeling a boatload of guilt over Susan and had all kinds of fears about becoming a monster.. So much so he suicided in an effort to avoid becoming one.. In short she was beating up on a whipped pup in many ways.. Supposedly she loves him, but she doesn't act like someone who loves him, though it may be insight as to why her marriages all failed... She may think she is motivated by protecting the Swords, but her actions with them says otherwise...
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 28, 2017, 09:17:28 PM --- I think it doesn’t much matter if Harry’s dead or alive; even if Nick kills everyone, he’s not the only witness. As I said, Mab has many servants with eyes open in the mortal world, not to mention the fact that she herself is likely keeping tabs on the operation. Why else is it that Dresden considers the vault to be literally the only place that Nick could double-cross him without word spreading?
Mab has a vested interest in screwing Nick over; I don’t believe that she would just take Nick’s word at heart and swap in another winter goon. That would pretty much ensure that Nick would walk out with all holy artifacts. In the event of Harry’s death, it’s Mab’s word against Nicodemus’, and Mab’s perception that matters.
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It's not a court of law, and we don't know that Mab's watching -- Mab isn't a babysitter, and in fact, given the plot kind of requires her to not be involved, her watching could get her in more trouble.
Harry is Mab's eyes and ears, and this is very much a "winners write the story" situation. Harry's orders were clear -- stop the doctor, keep him from telling anyone about what's going on. The whole "time limit" is pointless rules lawyering that's not going to come up, because there isn't going to be some indepth inquiry into it.
Nicodemus was there; he's effectively holding all the cards, and Mab can't argue against him because of that animosity -- she'd end up accused of purposefully sabotaging him if she backs Harry against Nicodemus's word.
As for the pixies, they are absolutely not reliable witnesses. They have no grasp of the kind of nuance and intricacies of the kind of story that would exonerate Harry here. Remember the largest, most powerful, smartest pixie we know responded to Harry's request to watch his back by literally looking at Harry's back. They are good at small, focused, short-term things, if you know how to talk to them and how to direct them. They are not going to be able to give an accurate play-by-play of what Harry was doing and why.
--- Quote ---First – yes, her talk about having faith and deciding to not be afraid that her friends will turn into monsters does sound like Michael. Why isn’t she taking her own advice? If she’s not going to live in fear that Dresden will turn into a monster, then why is she still self-appointed custodian?
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Michael has a lot of faith. He still wears kevlar. She has faith, but it's not blind. She gains faith that Harry is Harry, yes, but she's bright enough not to give him the keys until he's sobered up.
After Cold Days, he just plain hasn't asked her for the Swords back. One gets the sense that you don't get the Swords if you ask for them. All the times Harry's been given Swords, it's been without his prompting.
--- Quote ---Second – the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this. The point is that their creed believes that people given authority are ordained by God. Regardless of how corrupt or not corrupt the church is, Murphy believes in the power behind it, which is why she shouldn’t have self-appointed herself.
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This "self-appointed" thing is given way too much weight, as if she had this big ceremony and declared to the world at large that the Swords were hers and she was all powerful.
She just had been given the Swords by the person who was designated by Uriel, apparently, to hold them; as far as she knows, that means God means for them to be with her right now. It's that simple. Hell, she probably doesn't want them. They're a huge responsibility on top of all the other shit she's got to handle.
--- Quote ---Third – by hiding the swords at Michael’s, she’s made him in the game. Pure and simple.
--- End quote ---
This is true; she doesn't have a lot of choices on this, though. She could put them at the BFS, but that puts them were Marcone or Vadderungn could get them. She doesn't want to keep them together -- especially after Daniel spilled the beans to the White Court in Ghost Story. Michael's house is probably the safest place for them, and you're right, them being there puts Michael back in the game, but as long as he's not "officially" holding it, he's still kind of got an out.
--- Quote ---Bottom line – whether Harry entrusted the swords to her in his will or not, he’s not dead anymore. He’s very much alive, and she claims that having faith and trust in Dresden is the very thing that he needs most, and that she’s decided not to be afraid that he might turn into a monster.
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Yes -- in Skin Game. She might well have been more open to giving Harry the Swords in Skin Game. We don't know, because Harry never asks her to give them to him. He's accepted that she's holding them for now.
It's ironic that when Harry is most mentally capable of being a responsible custodian is also when he is not willing to ask for them back.
--- Quote ---Absolutely! And this is the beauty of the entire situation. We know that Michael’s fear is completely misplaced. We know that Michael fears that his friend might have succumbed to the darkness. Dresden calls him out on it, and Michael decides to trust in and have faith in his friend. It’s a beautiful moment in this, because Harry asks Michael to trust him as he literally seems to be about to give the swords away to the Denarians. And Michael decides to trust his friend and have faith.
I think this is part of the reason why later on, Michael outright laughs at Harry’s fear of descending into darkness, reminding him that he’s “pathologically unable to know when to quit.” Michael’s been down the same road as Karrin and has grown in faith and character. If Karrin’s talk about faith did come from Michael, this is likely why – because he’s been there. He knows what she’s afraid of.
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Yeah. My point was, Michael's faith in Harry wasn't so absolute until he saw him get over something that he thought was impossible. Murphy is at that point in Cold Days -- and after Harry comes back and is obviously still Harry, things have changed.
--- Quote ---Even assuming that a blackened Denarius containing a Fallen wouldn’t trigger some sort of response from the guardian angels – something that I find surprising, considering the being inside it and the danger that a Denarius represents to any mortal – how do you figure that Nick can retrieve it as simply as that? Stroll in, sure. The second he touches it, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Denarius again, who has Anduriel working through him to influence the physical world. A millisecond later, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Ash Pile on the Front Steps. And if he goes and retrieves it without touching the coin, he’s essentially defenseless and proving that he isn’t relinquishing the coin.
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Don't forget how Harry got his coin in the first place. By just picking it up in Michael's yard and strolling out.
We don't know what the Angelic response would be, but we do know that mortals can literally burn the place down without interference, and we've already seen one person pick up a coin and walk out of Michael's yard without trouble.
--- Quote ---Why else does Harry consider Michael’s house to be the best place in the city to go to for shelter from fallen angels? Harry comes to the conclusion that Butters must be going to Michael’s house before he figures out that the swords are there. If the angelic sentry doesn’t provide protection, then Butters is far better off going to a public location – possibly holy ground at Saint Mary of the Angels, rather than a house full of innocent, vulnerable children.
--- End quote ---
Harry is considering an attack. Not someone picking up the coin in the yard and leaving peacefully. And Harry doesn't know exactly how everything works, either.
--- Quote ---Come on. Murphy is the Dresden Files’ Batman; a mortal who holds her own through smarts, competence, and planning for every eventuality. You think she brought a Sword along to kill Denarians and would have forgotten to bring something to grab the coin that topples out? Ten to one that if she’s not wearing leather gloves (I mean, it is winter, and the book doesn’t describe her hands) that she’s at least got a run-of-the-mill handkerchief or ziplock bag in her pocket. It would be out of character for Karrin to not plan for this.
--- End quote ---
If she had planned for everything, she wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.
--- Quote ---Going from a two-handed to the weaker one-handed grip (and yes, a katana can be held and fought with one-handed), reaching her other hand in her pocket to retrieve a handkerchief, crouching and retrieving the coin while still holding the sword to Nick and not taking her eyes off of him, does still compromise her attention and position. This is true. But if Nick acts in sudden aggression or acts to retrieve the coin, then he’s no longer surrendered and Karrin can strike. Then he’s standing there with no noose on his neck, possibly no coin, facing a sword that can literally end him. This is not a better position. Yes, he could possibly turn the tables, but that’s by no means a sure thing – and in that case, she just merely has another trap with another choice.
--- End quote ---
Yes, then Karrin can strike -- while she's off-balance and in a weakened position. Nicodemus hash killed Knights before, and as he proves seconds later, he's a more dangerous hand-to-hand combatant than Karrin. He's someone who if you give him an inch, he'll take two miles.
DonBugen:
OK, don’t have much time, but I’ll quickly respond to each in turn.
--- Quote --- It's not a court of law, and we don't know that Mab's watching -- Mab isn't a babysitter, and in fact, given the plot kind of requires her to not be involved, her watching could get her in more trouble.
Harry is Mab's eyes and ears, and this is very much a "winners write the story" situation. Harry's orders were clear -- stop the doctor, keep him from telling anyone about what's going on. The whole "time limit" is pointless rules lawyering that's not going to come up, because there isn't going to be some indepth inquiry into it.
Nicodemus was there; he's effectively holding all the cards, and Mab can't argue against him because of that animosity -- she'd end up accused of purposefully sabotaging him if she backs Harry against Nicodemus's word.
As for the pixies, they are absolutely not reliable witnesses. They have no grasp of the kind of nuance and intricacies of the kind of story that would exonerate Harry here. Remember the largest, most powerful, smartest pixie we know responded to Harry's request to watch his back by literally looking at Harry's back. They are good at small, focused, short-term things, if you know how to talk to them and how to direct them. They are not going to be able to give an accurate play-by-play of what Harry was doing and why.
--- End quote ---
So, if Mab’s not watching, and the little folk aren’t reliable, and Nicodemus kills Harry AND Karrin AND Butters, and it’s just Nicodemus and the Genoskwa’s word… this somehow makes Nicodemus’ word more reliable?
I mean, I would assume he would have to provide some sort of evidence to back his claim. Otherwise, I mean, dang. He’s a fool for not just offing Harry on his way back from Burger King and claiming that Harry tried to kill him.
The only other person who is present at this moment that Mab gives respect to is Anduriel, who is in a symbiotic relationship with Nick. Even assuming that Anduriel is considered a trustworthy witness here to testify on Nicodemus’ behalf, then there would be an in-depth inquiry and questioning. And assuming that Anduriel is capable of lying, little folk could at least be called upon to verify this testimony.
Not all little folk are as completely ditzy as dewdrop faeries. The Cobbs who live at the Carpenters’ house, for example, are far more level-headed and intelligent but just have an extreme obsession with shoes. We just see a lot of ditzy faeries because that’s who seems to be attracted by Dresden’s pizza bribery. Lacuna has a bit more intelligence than Toot, for example, and her fairy death squad are a bit more capable than Toot’s as well.
--- Quote --- Hell, she probably doesn't want them. They're a huge responsibility on top of all the other shit she's got to handle.
--- End quote ---
Not arguing with you there. Murph puts a huge amount of responsibility on her shoulders. Poor Karrin.
--- Quote --- We don't know, because Harry never asks her to give them to him. He's accepted that she's holding them for now.
It's ironic that when Harry is most mentally capable of being a responsible custodian is also when he is not willing to ask for them back.
--- End quote ---
Remember that in Skin Game, when Harry asks Karrin if she’s going to bring in the swords, he still thinks that she sees him being turned into a monster. It’s not until his first talk with Michael that he realizes that the reason why Karrin only went to the island a handful of times is because it’s a terribly psychologically scarring place. Why would he ask to be the custodian at that point? From his point of view, what’s changed?
--- Quote --- My point was, Michael's faith in Harry wasn't so absolute until he saw him get over something that he thought was impossible.
--- End quote ---
You’re getting the order wrong. When Harry confronted Michael in his workshop, he gave Michael no evidence that the shadow was gone. He just asked Michael to trust him, to have faith. Michael doesn’t actually see evidence that the shadow is gone until they’re on Demonreach, surrounded by Denarians, with Dresden holding a sword of faith and acting as if he’s going to make it vulnerable and break it. You don’t get to that point unless you have faith that your friend is telling the truth.
--- Quote --- Don't forget how Harry got his coin in the first place. By just picking it up in Michael's yard and strolling out.
We don't know what the Angelic response would be, but we do know that mortals can literally burn the place down without interference, and we've already seen one person pick up a coin and walk out of Michael's yard without trouble.
--- End quote ---
It’s stated several times in the books since Small Favor that the angelic guard is part of Michael’s retirement package. In other words, Dresden picked up the coin before there were a dozen angels poised to attack the yard. Otherwise, how could Gruffs have attacked in the beginning of Small Favor, or the Fetches in Proven Guilty?
--- Quote --- If she had planned for everything, she wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.
--- End quote ---
That’s a weak argument. It’s several orders of magnitude easier to prepare to pick up a Denarian’s coin than to have prepared for “If Butters follows us and listens in and is caught, and we follow him through the city in order to save him, and I’m showing up late to the stalemate between Nicodemus and Dresden because a taxi caused me to swerve into a swimming pool, how best should I approach the situation?”
The pointy ends of swords are meant for sticking in Denarians. When you stick those pointy ends into said Denarian, a coin falls out. Kinda like an evil piñata. This is kind of Denarian 101. And Karrin knows how this works; she was there when they gathered a bag full of the coins at the Shedd Aquarium.
In any case, your assumption that Karrin can’t pick up the coin would need to be backed up with some sort of evidence, because her knowledge of how the coins work and her own character traits suggest that she would be prepared.
--- Quote --- Yes, then Karrin can strike -- while she's off-balance and in a weakened position. Nicodemus hash killed Knights before, and as he proves seconds later, he's a more dangerous hand-to-hand combatant than Karrin. He's someone who if you give him an inch, he'll take two miles.
--- End quote ---
So we agree on this, then? Again, not saying that this is sunshine, daisies, and clear skies ahead, and not saying that there might not be a Knight-level of miracle needed to pull their butts out of the fire. Karrin, holding the sword of faith, had no faith that doing the actions of a knight would save Dresden. If she had put her faith in TWG, she would have called Nick’s bluff and broken this stalemate, and brought them to a different sort of conflict. But if Karrin is actually acting as a knight should, then I think that she should have a knight’s superpower – that regardless of how difficult or dangerous the threat is, she always has the ability to overcome it.
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