The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
DonBugen:
All: sorry if this message sounds weird, my keyboard died and so I'm dictating this to my cell phone. Expect some odd misspellings. I'm proofreading as best as I can, but it's a tiny little screen.
Mr. Death: I agree that I think we're pretty much at the same place, though I'm sure there's some small things we may quibble over that I think we're in an "agree to disagree" mode - like whether Karrin was a good friend to deny Dresden the right of custodianship.
--- Quote ---I would say it's not so much she thinks she has the right as she feels she has the responsibility to look after and hand out the Swords. Someone needs to look after them until the time is right; Harry was that person, then he got killed and implicitly entrusted them to Murphy. She probably didn't want them any more than Harry did, but now that she has them, she's going to do the job to the best of her ability and guided by her own judgment -- just like Harry did.
--- End quote ---
That is an excellent argument if Karen had decided to appoint someone a Knight before CD, but not so much after. Karrin is Catholic, same as Michael. They both believe that the will of God should be followed. Their creed states that priests, bishops, and popes should be divinely ordained, as well as anyone else in that kind of high position. So why does she take up on herself the role and responsibility?
One would think that she would think that Michael would be a better choice to ordain the next bearer of the swords. Instead, she refuses to give up control and takes the role upon herself. And we see that the results are disastrous. I don't argue that she felt like she had the responsibility, but just because she felt like she had the responsibility didn't mean that she actually had it.
--- Quote ---There's one fundamental difference between Lash and the Mantle. Lash is there because Harry did not accept the coin's bargain; the Mantle is there because he did accept Mab's. There's a level of acceptance in the Mantle that wasn't present for Lash -- he's already said the big Yes, which I'd say makes him more vulnerable to it.
--- End quote ---
There were many levels of acceptance for using the coin. Remember? With each level, Harry got a little bit more power, and Lash got a little more control. Touching coin, Harry got the shadow, Lash got to communicate to Harry's subconscious, and some involuntary use of her power. Calling on that power voluntarily gave him direct communication with Lash, the ability for him to be reasoned and argued with, and the access to her knowledge. It's true that in the case of the winter mantel, Harry is currently further along the path than he was with lash. But make no mistake, he has already made the choice and accepted the power in. Foot in the door. Lash admits that no one who had accepted to the level that he already had had remained uncorrupted. In the long- term, a mortal who held a coin has just as much chance to be corrupted as a mortal having the winter mantle: it's an almost certainty. That's why I think that there's a fundamental difference between Michael and Karrin in this case: Michael had faith that his friend wouldn't become corrupted. Karrin did not.
--- Quote ---Fair, I hadn't thought of it in that terms. But Hannah appealed to Harry personally in ways that, say, Nicodemus did not. Harry might be willing to save a "new" Denarian that he thinks was tricked, but Michael is willing to save Nicodemus.
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You say that now, but remember: we don't actually know what Nicodemus' long term plans actually are. Nick is an ends justify the means kind of person, and it's been very clear throughout all of his appearances that he running against a deadline against something gigantic. His daughter also says candidly that they believe that they're saving the world. In SF, one of the books in which I think that he's being the most upfront and honest, he really does try to persuade Dresden, and says that a lot of the job would actually be good.
I believe that at this point, he thinks that Lash has more influence over him and that he could be swayed. There's no reason to give Harry the coin of the temptress unless he actually intends to win him over to his court. I think that once he understands what Nick has been working towards, they will still be enemies. But he will, to an extent, understand why he went to such lengths. And that understanding can lead to empathy.
--- Quote ---Chopping up vampires is not a KoTC's main job, saving mortals from fallen is.
--- End quote ---
Michael was on mission when he helped out Harry in GP he was on mission when they fought the demon summer earlier that year. He was on Mission when he saved Ebenezer and gain during PG. Just because the Denarians are there huge major enemy, doesn't mean that they're not called to other tasks.
--- Quote ---Who would not break a sword to save a loved one?
--- End quote ---
A true Knight trusts TWG and knows that there's always a way out. The right way will present itself, if they have faith. Therefore, they should never be in a situation where they would have to break a sword in order to save a loved one.
Consider the situation. Karrin attacking with the sword did nothing. It did nothing other than allow Nick to drop his game and win. If Karen had called his bluff, Dresden would not have died. Nick was counting on Dresden to get through the gate of ice. Mab would not have given him a second knight due to Harry's death in service at the hands of one of Nick's henchman and at his instructions. Nor could Nick risk Karrin calling his bluff. If Karen had called Nick's bluff, walked up, and attempted to recover Anduriel's coin to toss it into Michael's yard - somewhere irretrievable - Nick would have scrambled to retrieve it and let them go. He really doesn't have any other option at this point. He needs Harry's cooperation. And to have taken such a leap of faith, I think that Karrin might have actually become a knight. Funny, what the difference between one choice will make.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 27, 2017, 07:21:38 PM --- A true Knight trusts TWG and knows that there's always a way out. The right way will present itself, if they have faith. Therefore, they should never be in a situation where they would have to break a sword in order to save a loved one.
--- End quote ---
No he does not know there is always a way out because free willed choices in the past by her and other people could have put her in a situation without one.
Uriel does not think human life that important anyway, the soul is more important.
--- Quote ---Consider the situation. Karrin attacking with the sword did nothing. It did nothing other than allow Nick to drop his game and win. If Karen had called his bluff, Dresden would not have died.
--- End quote ---
Harry had broken the rules. Nicodemus could very well have killed him and asked Mab for a replacement.
--- Quote ---Nick was counting on Dresden to get through the gate of ice. Mab would not have given him a second knight due to Harry's death in service at the hands of one of Nick's henchman and at his instructions. Nor could Nick risk Karrin calling his bluff. If Karen had called Nick's bluff, walked up, and attempted to recover Anduriel's coin to toss it into Michael's yard - somewhere irretrievable - Nick would have scrambled to retrieve it and let them go. He really doesn't have any other option at this point. He needs Harry's cooperation. And to have taken such a leap of faith, I think that Karrin might have actually become a knight. Funny, what the difference between one choice will make.
--- End quote ---
Nicodemus would have called the coin back to him, they can do that until the coin is secured.
And the only decision that really counted here was when she took the sword. She took it to save Harry and she did. Breaking the sword was not the objective or even something she did to save Harry, it was just the result of who she was and the situation she was in. Maybe she could have handled it differently (though try to find that out in her situation under stress and only seconds to think, even when people have years to think about it I did not read a real better option)
She acted true to her nature as Uriel probably already had figured out before it happened.
DonBugen:
Ok, now I'm trying to write with an iPad, and can't easily copy/paste. I could only bring in one copied chunk of text, and chose a book quote. Please forgive me for the awkwardness.
--- Quote ---Arjan's comment on how knights can't have faith that there will be a way out due to free will.
--- End quote ---
I think you're missing the point of the Knights. Michael has to run out with Dresden to save his pregnant wife from the Nightmare, and Father Forthill is miraculously there to babysit. Sanya confidently asserts that they will arrive at Chichen Itza in time despite being horribly behind schedule. Michael thanking God in Skin Game for never having to make the choices that Harry had to. There's always, always a choice. The choice might suck - Shiro sacrificing himself (not his sword) for Dresden certainly did - but there's always a choice.
--- Quote ---Arjan's comment on how Harry broke the rules so Nick was OK to kill him and get a replacement.
--- End quote ---
How did he break the rules? I don't see it. So he wasn't all that helpful in the fight. You know how confusing fights might go. So his spell failed to kill Butters and knocked him into another yard. He was always a slippery little guy. Nick even acknowledges at the end that his threat to Dresden and attempt to kill him was just a ploy and therefore not a betrayal. Harry did not hurt Nick or Gen and complied with the orders given. While it's obvious that he's trying to work against Nicodemus, they stay within the letter of the law. If Gen were to kill him now, that would be a betrayal of Mab's trust.
--- Quote ---”“The hell you have,” I spat. “You just ordered your goon to kill me. You’ve broken your contract with Mab.”
Nicodemus shifted his gaze to me and looked amused. “That?” he said. “Goodness, Dresden, can you not recognize a ploy when you see one?”
“What ploy?” I demanded.
“I needed to put a little pressure on Miss Murphy,” he said. “But you were never in any actual danger. Do you honestly think it would take the Genoskwa more than a few seconds to crack even a skull so thick as yours?” He smiled widely, clearly enjoying himself. “Why, it was no more an attempt to kill you than was your participation in the chase of the little doctor a betrayal of Mab’s word that you would aid me.”
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Arjans comment that a Denarian can call back a coin with magic until it is secured.
--- End quote ---
Do you remember in the final battle in Skin Game, when Nicodemus grabs his wife's arm and prevents her from sending a spell in retaliation into Michaels yard? It's not just that the supernatural folk can't enter the yard; they can't penetrate it, even with magic, without risking the wrath of the guardian angels. Reaching magically into Michaels yard to pull out some cursed pocket change, I think, counts as crossing the boundary into the protected zone, and would mean that the Angels would be free to smite him.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 27, 2017, 10:31:03 AM ---If this is true, it just further proves the point that she was never a rightful custodian of the Swords. What you saying works in the heat of the moment, she really thought that Harry was going to die, ergo she used the Sword improperly.. If that is all that happened, buy that, but it wasn't... 1] She made the decision to conceal the Sword on her person, after all she said, not a word to Harry. It reeks premeditation, it also reeks planning on using the Sword as a mere weapon, a] you don't bring it unless you intend to use it..b] you know if you have to use it chances are you are going to misuse it.. In effect it makes her a hypocrite, she talks good about the rules but then she knowingly breaks them. 2] It is her sitting of judgement of Nic, the words "damn you," as she lowers the Sword that got it broken, to her in that moment it was a mere weapon, she had Nic beaten, he had surrendered, she proceeded to execution...
--- End quote ---
Here is the mixed up. Failure as knight does not = failure as the custodian. A custodian and a KoTc are 2 separate post with 2 entirely different responsibilities, for example: we know Harry is a great custodian, but he definitely is not knight material.
Murphy does not want to be a knight, she knows she is not suited for it. This however, does not disqualify her for the post of custodian. A custodian's duty is to keep the sword safe and deploy them should the custodian finds it nescesary, which Murphy do just fine. A KoTC's duty is to wield the sword in the name of Heaven and complete missions given to them by the office and under it's code, which Murphy has serious problem with.
As the custodian, Murphy choose to gave herself fidelacchius to wield. In other words she, as the custodian, appointed herself as Knight, or at least as a temp sword wielder. The result of this choice is:
1. Harry is saved.
2. Fid is broken in preparation for it's reforging to a more suitable form.
As a knight, Murphy choose to attack Nick after he has surrendered. The consequences of her choice is:
1. Nick take the chance to break fid.
2. She lost her qualifications to become a knight and the custodian.
3. She got injured badly.
There are times when a custodian must make questionable choices. Harry using fid as a betting chip in book 10 is one example. A knight however are more strictly bound by their code.
Ask yourself this question. Why there is a need for a custodian in the firstplace? Why not just leave the holy sword in the hands of another knight?
If what is needed in a custodian is the same as what is needed as a knight, Heaven should have just left fid in the hands of Michael when Shiro died.
It is clear to me that a custodian is a strategic post which someone sneaky like Urieal created because a knight is far too rigid in their conduct and lacks flexibility in the face of unpredictable and fluctuating circumstances.
peregrine:
Yes, but you see, Murphy.
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