The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Kindler:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 17, 2017, 07:49:11 PM ---No, truth is he couldn't he had been mostly dead for half of that year and in rehab for the rest... She also had good reason to believe he was dead in Ghost Story, so why weren't her first words to Harry, "HARRY! YOU'RE ALIVE! I thought you were dead, what happened?" But no, about her feeling betrayed because he didn't call or write....
--- End quote ---
Murphy didn't know about Harry being held by Mab. When he tells her, she even points out that it's really unlikely that Harry couldn't have figured out how to contact her. Dresden's narration agrees that yeah, if he had really wanted to, he probably could have, but didn't. Thomas is the only one who really has the reaction a lot of fans probably want, and I get it, but hers is perfectly consistent with her character.
--- Quote ---Point here is, she knows she shouldn't wield one, her instincts are right... But she brings it anyway... Does she even ask Harry's opinion on whether or not that was a good idea considering? No... Did she trust that he might agree with her? No.. Instead she hides it like a fat lady hiding a candy wrapper thinking no one would notice.. For all her smarts, she displayed her ignorance because she should have known that Nick was listening in and would set her up.. Harry realized it the minute she pulled the Sword out that he didn't know she had with her, but it was too late then..
--- End quote ---
She doesn't have to ask Harry for permission. First, she has the swords already, and Dresden has accepted that by Skin Game. He doesn't say "Bring the swords," he says, "Are you going to bring the swords?"
Second, she really doesn't have to ask him if it's a good idea, because he had already told her it was.
Skin Game, from pages 40-41 on my Nook:
(click to show/hide)"Ask you something?"
"Sure."
"You planning to bring one of the Swords with you?"
[Narrative snip]
She frowned, her eyes scanning the street, and didn't answer for a moment. When she did, I had the impression that she was choosing her words carefully. "You know I have to be careful with them."
"They're weapons, Karrin," I said. "They're not glass figurines. What's the point in having two genuine holy swords with which to fight evil if you don't, you know, fight evil with them occasionally?"
"Swords are funny," she replied. "The most capable muscle-powered tool there is for killing a man. But they're fragile, too..." [snipping irrelevant details, Murphy says they're supposed to fight the Fallen in the coins, not the ones who hold the coins, she doesn't want to save them, et cetera.]
"So you'll just let them sit and do nothing?"
"I'll give them to anyone I think will use them wisely and well.. But people like that don't come along every day. Being a keeper of the Swords is a serious job, Harry. You know that."
"Yeah, I do..."
Anyway, Harry makes his opinion clear. He thinks they should be used, Murphy says she has to be careful.
And, again, her making a mistake doesn't mean she makes that mistake out of distrust. I didn't say that she was smart to hide it—in fact, I said quite the opposite. I'm not sure what Nic listening in has to do with anything; he didn't hear anything about the Sword, because she didn't say anything about it.
--- Quote ---Not cheerleader, but supportive... If you have a alcoholic that has stayed off the booze for a year, do you berate him because he went off to kick the habit? Or do you say something to the effect that he looks great or keep up the good work you are there for him? That's what friends do...
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure which point you're referring to. In Cold Days, Harry isn't an alcoholic who laid off booze for a year, he's an alcoholic who's been sipping amaretto for the past hour and insisting that he's fine, and she's trying to make sure he doesn't have his car keys. In Skin Game, I don't see any berating at all.
--- Quote ---Evidence? The fact that she keeps reminding him he could turn into a monster... That means she thinks he could still turn into a monster... No, my friend she doesn't completely trust that he won't.
--- End quote ---
She mentioned it at the beginning and the end of Cold Days, because Harry keeps saying so. He arranged his own suicide because he was terrified that he might turn into one. She then says that she's afraid because she might like it too much.
And yet she spent the rest of Cold Days right there with him, trusting him enough to charge at the Wild Hunt, then, you know, drive a motorcycle across Lake Michigan.
In Skin Game, the only time (that I can recall) that she comes close to saying "Oh my God Harry you're going to murder us all" is when they first get to the slaughterhouse, and Harry starts creepily listing off reasons not to murder someone with zero context. They see someone, and the temperature in the car drops, and Harry starts saying, "Reason one: witnesses," and so on. Even then, her response isn't to, you know, run, or say "Harry you're an animal and should be locked up," it's the following:
Skin Game, page 45-46 on my Nook:
(click to show/hide)"Four," I said quietly, "killing people is wrong."
I became conscious of Karrin's eyes on me. I glanced at her face. Her expression was tough to read.
She put her hand on mine and said, "Harry? Are you all right?"
I didn't move or respond.
"Mab," Karrin said. "This is about Mab, isn't it? This is what she's done to you."
"It's Winter," I said. "It's power, but it's. . .all primitive. Violent. It doesn't think. It's pure instinct, feeling, emotion. And when it's inside you, if you let your emotions control you, it..."
"It makes you like Lloyd Slate," Karrin said. "Or that bitch Maeve."
I pulled my hand away from hers and said, "Like I said. This is not the time to get in touch with my feelings."
She regarded me for several seconds before saying, "Well. That is all kinds of fucked-up."
[Narration snip]
"I don't want to be like this."
"So get out of it," she said.
"The only way out is feetfirst," I said.
She shook her head. "I don't believe that," she said. "There's always a way out. A way to make things better."
Oh, man.
I wanted to believe that.
In the above, she's acknowledging that he has a problem, which, to continue with the alcoholism comparison, is kind of important. Harry is explaining his experience, and she agrees that it's bad, because, you know, it is. He just spent a few minutes talking himself out of murder. Then she tells him that he can figure out a way to get out of it. She's telling an alcoholic that he needs to get help.
In what way is that not supportive? If I were to read Harry's conversation with Michael cynically, it's not a stretch to say that Michael is simply enabling him. Harry tells him he's worried he might change. Michael just says, "You won't. You're Harry!" I get it, and Michael is probably my favorite character, but it's a little dangerous to feed that kind of thinking for too long.
It makes Harry feel better, and he probably needed to hear something like it at that particularly low moment (less than an hour after he failed to protect yet another innocent man) but I think most people would agree that just cruising along as he has is not a long-term solution. Harry needs to lose the Winter Knight's mantle, or he's not going to last too much longer.
Don't get me wrong, that's not the way I read the conversation, really, but my point is that pretty much any conversation, viewed cynically enough, is bad for Harry.
--- Quote ---Do you think Butters would have come to mistrust Harry in a vacuum? She may not have added to it, but I bet she didn't disabuse him of that notion either.
--- End quote ---
She disabuses him of it on the page, in front of us. We get to see her do it. We don't see what happens between Cold Days and Skin Game, so we don't know what took place between them. Murphy's reaction to Butters doesn't indicate one way or another that she's heard any of it before.
We do know Butters's reasons for distrusting him, and he doesn't mention Murphy at all.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Murphy didn't know about Harry being held by Mab. When he tells her, she even points out that it's really unlikely that Harry couldn't have figured out how to contact her. Dresden's narration agrees that yeah, if he had really wanted to, he probably could have, but didn't. Thomas is the only one who really has the reaction a lot of fans probably want, and I get it, but hers is perfectly consistent with her character.
--- End quote ---
Could he? Or because Murphy laid a trip on him he goes into woulda shoulda mode, but if he couldn't get hold of Molly, how likely is it he could get a hold of anyone else? In fact I seem to remember him wondering why he hadn't heard from anyone... Another point not mentioned, I believe Thomas did travel to the island during the year, so Harry could have written a note I suppose, but better yet, Murphy could have hitched a ride if she and her friends were so concerned..
--- Quote ---She doesn't have to ask Harry for permission. First, she has the swords already, and Dresden has accepted that by Skin Game. He doesn't say "Bring the swords," he says, "Are you going to bring the swords?"
Second, she really doesn't have to ask him if it's a good idea, because he had already told her it was.
--- End quote ---
Actually, she has no authority to say anything about the Swords, since she isn't their custodian, she has them, but she isn't in charge of them.. This could be one reason why they hadn't been used since Harry disappeared at the end of Changes.. Granted it could be no suitable candidate has showed up... Harry asks her because he trusts her and doesn't realize back in Cold Days that she lied to him about being the new custodian..
--- Quote ---Anyway, Harry makes his opinion clear. He thinks they should be used, Murphy says she has to be careful.
And, again, her making a mistake doesn't mean she makes that mistake out of distrust. I didn't say that she was smart to hide it—in fact, I said quite the opposite. I'm not sure what Nic listening in has to do with anything; he didn't hear anything about the Sword, because she didn't say anything about it.
--- End quote ---
She is still lying to him by omission... Harry is still the true Custodian, whether he possessed them or not, he knows they need to be on the mission.. Her reasoning for not take them is sound, but the problem is she isn't admitting that she really doesn't have a say here.. Nick listening in has EVERYTHING to do with it, he knows exactly how she feels and that for some unexplained reason she thought she could hide the Sword and no one would be the wiser and he set her up... Two birds if you will, he took out a Holy Sword, and an effective fighter to go with Harry...
--- Quote ---I'm not sure which point you're referring to. In Cold Days, Harry isn't an alcoholic who laid off booze for a year, he's an alcoholic who's been sipping amaretto for the past hour and insisting that he's fine, and she's trying to make sure he doesn't have his car keys. In Skin Game, I don't see any berating at all.
--- End quote ---
How would she know? She never asked, she just assumed.. THAT is trust... She never asked Harry if he had the mantle under control or was better at contriving it now.. She just made assumptions..
--- Quote ---
In Skin Game, the only time (that I can recall) that she comes close to saying "Oh my God Harry you're going to murder us all" is when they first get to the slaughterhouse, and Harry starts creepily listing off reasons not to murder someone with zero context. They see someone, and the temperature in the car drops, and Harry starts saying, "Reason one: witnesses," and so on. Even then, her response isn't to, you know, run, or say "Harry you're an animal and should be locked up," it's the following:
--- End quote ---
Wrong... It may be cold blooded but going back to his self control exercises during the year, this is how he controls the mantle so it doesn't take over... A form of yoga breathing exercises or counting to ten...
Her answer isn't practical because she doesn't really understand... Harry just cannot take the mantle off like an old tee-shirt..
--- Quote ---In the above, she's acknowledging that he has a problem, which, to continue with the alcoholism comparison, is kind of important. Harry is explaining his experience, and she agrees that it's bad, because, you know, it is. He just spent a few minutes talking himself out of murder. Then she tells him that he can figure out a way to get out of it. She's telling an alcoholic that he needs to get help.
--- End quote ---
But Harry has already helped himself... He has found a way to talk himself out of irrational violent acts that the mantle may push... That is what any addict does really, the cravings don't go away, the addict merely finds a way to cope with them. It ain't easy, that is why so many back slide or go off the wagon after years of sobriety.. Even in these times there is no magic pill to make it all go away... Again Murphy doesn't have a clue... She is well meaning, but she isn't helping either.
--- Quote ---We do know Butters's reasons for distrusting him, and he doesn't mention Murphy at all.
--- End quote ---
Murphy has been his leader for the past year, I find really hard to believe that she didn't have any clue... If she didn't she isn't a very good leader... Maybe that's what is bothering her and why she lied about controlling the Swords, she needed maintain some power.
raidem:
The alternative to nemfection for aurora is that her proximity and closeness with humans allowed her greater freedom of action outside the restraints that normally apply to the queens. And that willingness to embrace revolutionary ideas would be what titania learned aurora had become.
Con:
--- Quote from: raidem on August 19, 2017, 04:30:48 AM ---The alternative to nemfection for aurora is that her proximity and closeness with humans allowed her greater freedom of action outside the restraints that normally apply to the queens. And that willingness to embrace revolutionary ideas would be what titania learned aurora had become.
--- End quote ---
Pretty sure Rashid confirmed Aurora was nemfected when he was explaining it in Cold Days. I'll confirm when I get home I have their conversation book marked.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Con on August 18, 2017, 11:39:25 AM ---Hmmm I'm half and half on Murphy at the moment but to be honest, it started for me when she became "fun buddies" with a mass murdering mercenary. It seemed like such a hypocrisy.
--- End quote ---
For people who want to understand how Murphy's outlook has changed over the years, that incident at that time is actually high instructive. It's not precisely hypocritical...because Karrin was no longer who she had been.
The first few books showed us a Karrin Murphy in denial. She was willing to admit the reality of what she had seen and heard, that the supernatural was real. She was also realistic enough to recognize that it was dangerous, to really recognize it, I mean, in her guts, which put her one up on Susan, who thought it was all a big game deep down.
But at the same time, she was in denial on two vital levels. She would not admit to herself just how deeply the supernatural scared her, because Karrin was a person who needed control and the supernatural was uncontrollable. She was smart enough to recognize that uncontrollability, but unable to admit to herself that she feared that. Her fear tended to manifest as short temper and anger.
Related to that was her reliance on the Law as a comfort belief, almost verging on a religious tenet. She desperately wanted to believe in the Law as something that applied to everyone, that protected everyone, that it could encompass the supernatural and that the supernatural could be handled within its framework..which was sheer, unadulterated nonsense. But her fear and need for control and reliance on that comfort belief blocked her from admitting that to herself.
The big blow up came with Ron Carmichael's death, which was very nearly a direct consequence of this self-deception on Murphy's part. After that came a period over a few books where the 'old Karrin' would periodically surface, and get knocked down by reality, and the 'new Karrin', humbler, more realistic, (and a maybe a little more broken) gradually supplanted her.
In Blood Rites, there's a scene where she and Harry meet Kincaid, that is key to understanding her transition. She and Harry are about to engage in vigilante work, wiping out a scourge of Black Vampires...and their human thralls. Now, to my knowledge, there's no law against destroying Black Vampires, since the legislators don't believe in them. But killing their thralls, with planning beforehand...that's Murder One. Think about that for a minute.
Karrin thought about it, and couldn't find a way out. She couldn't protect the public from the vampires without going through the thralls, which meant committing first degree murder, by definition. The law makes no exceptions for supernatural compulsions. But if she doesn't do it the vampires are going to keep feeding and making new vampires and at least the theoretical potential for an exponential growth curve exists. Mavra probably wouldn't do that, of course, but she could, and even if she didn't her scourge is going to cause tremendous pain, suffering and death.
Murphy had to work with a professional killer who impersonated an officer, because she couldn't do it on her own. She had to engage in multiple major felonies. She hated it, but couldn't find the loophole, because there was no loophole. She even tells Harry about her inner battle.
--- Quote ---Murphy: "I'm trying to adjust. In my head, I think what we're doing is just about the only thing we responsibly can. But I've been a peace officer since before I could drink, and this kind of cowboy thing feels...wrong. It isn't what a good cop does."
Harry: "Depends on the cop, I think. Mavra and her scourge are above the law, Murph, in every sense that matters. The only way they're going to get stopped is if someone steps up and takes them down."
<skip a bit>
Murphy: The vampires aren't the problem. I can fight that. Glad to. But there are going to be people around them, too. I don't know if I can pull the trigger when there are going to be people around who could get hurt. I signed on to protect them, not to trap them in a cross-fire."
--- End quote ---
Harry muses that there wasn't much he could say to that last. Because there isn't. There's no loophole and no way out for Karrin, unless she wants to turn around and walk away. Even then, she'd be committing felonies by not preventing Harry and Kincaid from doing what she knew they intended to do (not that she could realistically stop them, the wheels were turning).
Nor is her reaction unreasonable. A common first step down the road to corruption is rationalization of doing something you know you should not do. That wasn't the case here, the necessity really was what it was, but the pattern of thought is similar.
Just before they struck, the Old Karrin put in a last desperate appearance. She pointed out to Harry that she could arrange to have cops from all over the area descend on the lair of the scourge, hundreds of officers, heavily armed. They could do it legally...but Harry had to point out what would really happen if they tried that. She can't tell them the truth and if she lies and they cops go in blind, a bunch of good cops die or worse. Further, even if the Law wins the day and wipes out Mavra's scourge and forces her to flee, the supernatural is going to hit back...and when they do, the 'victorious' cops are beyond screwed, and so are their families, their friends, etc. They have neither the knowledge nor the resources to protect themselves.
(Which I suspect is one reason why a lot of the older Council members consider Harry's public stance and involvement with mortal authorities not just unwise, but immoral.)
She can be a cop, but to remain that at heart she must turn her back and walk away from the supernatural entirely, close her eyes. She can fight to protect Chicago from the monsters...but to do so means she's no longer, at heart, really a cop. Being a cop is just her cover, in that case, for her vigilante activities. The conflict tears at who she is, and forces her to become someone else. Blood Rites is when she makes that transition, after that the Old Karrin occasionally pops up, but never for long and less and less often.
The trip to Hawaii with Kincaid is hypocritical for the old Karrin. It's not for the new one, because the new one isn't a cop anymore, not at heart. It's also a sign that she's accepting that she's no longer who she was. Of course, that's not all of it. It's also about fighting her attraction to Harry and dealing with discovering that her ex-husband is now her brother-in-law and so forth.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version