The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
DonBugen:
Hey Mr. Death, I just want to start with saying this: I’m totally cool if this is just a debate back and forth. But I’m a little concerned that I might be hitting a nerve or be pushing too far. No need to turn a friendly debate into an argument. If I’m coming across as a jerk or something, let me know and I’ll walk away. No big deal.
Anyways, to answer your questions:
And, again: Is instant violence the kind of response that the rightful custodian of the Swords should have? Depends. Michael knew that Harry was the keeper of the sword of Faith in the same time period that he knew that he had touched a coin and was under a Fallen’s influence. Yet Michael never stepped in and took the sword from him. I think that Michael defers to the judgment of higher powers rather than his own, and I don’t think that the servants of TWG are as swayed by momentary actions as much as the heart and choice of the individual. They also have a different perspective than the average mortal.
Why would Butcher copy and paste the same exact things again? What in that paragraph applies to Bob but doesn't apply to the Swords? Good point. You may be right.
Tell me what text in the books indicates Murphy is "manipulating" him. Tell me what text in the books indicates that Harry should have the Swords in that time and place. Of course, you know that it never explicitly says that Harry should have had the swords in the text of the book. The only one who can determine who *should* have the swords is TWG, and we only see his will as expressed through his servants. Uriel can be trusted to reflect his master’s will; Michael, to a lesser extent – he is human, after all. But it is to be noted that both Michael and Uriel both act with faith and trust in Harry, and so far that faith and trust has not been misplaced. Harry’s actions, while out of character, are completely in character of someone under the power of the Winter Mantle. The only thing out of character are the choices that Harry makes.
As for manipulating, I feel like you’re taking this in the “HAHAHA, I have you now!” kind of sneaky dark manipulation. Murph knows that Harry wants and values her trust and loyalty. She makes it very clear that she’s willing to give it IF Harry goes along with her requests. She doesn’t sit down calmly with Harry and say, “Hey, I’m worried that you have these two things, can I maybe hang on to them for you?” No, she specifically states that her actions will all depend on how Harry responds to her. That’s a kind of manipulation. Harry makes his decision knowing that he will win or lose Karrin’s trust by agreeing or disagreeing with her. She even poses that question directly to Dresden right before he submits – if you want my trust, you have to give me trust.
Mab shows Harry later on how everything he’s ever done with Molly can all be seen as him manipulating her into being completely indebted and beholden to him. And it’s both true and false. Harry never intended to manipulate Molly, but the result of his actions and choices was that Molly was in that situation.
You're acting like Murphy is making some kind of power play, when that's not the case. I’m saying that she’s doing her best to protect everyone she knows by limiting the amount of damage Harry could do. And she’s using her trust and loyalty as the lever to get Dresden to listen to her. Yeah, if my WAG is correct then it could also be some sort of dark play to get the swords in custody and destroy one in a totally legit manner, but that’s a WAG.
That the two exchanges happen more than a year apart and that Harry's mindset and control of the Mantle are in very different places is not a matter of opinion. They're observable, explicit fact. Very true.
Michael did not see Harry nearly pound Murphy's head into the wall. Michael did not see Harry having to mentally hold back from viciously raping his daughter. Michael did not see Harry agreeing to "watch the world burn" to get what he wants. Nope. But for the first two, I do believe that Michael would see them as Harry learning restraint with the Winter Mantle. He directly addresses the last one in Skin Game, and acknowledges that he doesn’t know if he would do any differently.
Michael soulgazed Harry more than a decade ago. A lot has changed in Harry's life since then. True, but remember that the soulgaze is a view of a person’s fundamental self, and Harry has stated more than once that if a person has changed drastically since them they would trigger a new soulgaze.
Tell me how putting her trust in Harry is "letting fear and doubts" guide her. Because she’s not trusting Harry. She doesn’t trust that he won’t turn evil – she doesn’t get that until Skin Game. At this point, she’s just at the ‘wait and see’ stage. She gives Harry a limited amount of trust IF he also surrenders these articles of power to her.
If my wife said that she trusted me to go out with my friends, but only if two really pretty friends aren’t along, then it’s clear that she doesn’t trust me not to get up to any shenanigans.
That's all Murphy was doing. You cannot ignore that Harry is working through a lot of dark stuff in Cold Days. Agree with all of these things, and also with what Murph was doing. I swear, sometimes it sounds to me like we’re making the same argument. However, I do think that Karrin’s making the wrong decision here. Is it easier to make the right decision if your friends tell you that they have faith in you and believe in you, or is it easier if they treat you like you could turn into a monster at any point? Skin Game Karrin has a different opinion on the matter than Cold Days Karrin, and came to that conclusion seemingly independent of rampaging Dresden.
--- Quote ---Butters sighed. “I see what you did there.”
“I don’t think you do,” she said. “It’s about choices, Waldo. About faith. You have an array of facts in front of you that can fit any of several truths. You have to choose what you’re going to allow to drive your decisions about how to deal with those facts.”
“What do you mean?”
“You can let fear be what motivates you,” Karrin said. “Maybe you’re right; maybe Dresden is being turned into a monster against his knowledge and will. Maybe one day he’ll be something that kills us all. You’re not wrong. That kind of thing can happen; it scares me, too.”
“Then why are you arguing with me?”
Karrin paused for a time before answering. “Because fear is a terrible, insidious thing, Waldo. It taints and stains everything it touches. If you let fear start driving some of your decisions, sooner or later it will drive them all. I decided that I’m not going to be the kind of person who lives her life in fear of her friends turning into monsters.”
“What, just like that?”
“It took me a long, long time to get there,” she said. “But at the end of the day, I would rather have faith in the people I care about than allow my fears to change them, in my own eyes, if nowhere else. I guess maybe you don’t see what’s happening with Harry here.”
“What?” Butters asked.
“This is what it looks like when someone’s fighting for his soul,” she said. “He needs his friends to believe in him. The fastest way for us to help us make him into a monster is to look at him like he is one.”
--- End quote ---
I’m not ignoring that Dresden’s going through some really dark stuff. I know how close he is to violence. I know that he relies on his friends to point him in the right direction. But he also relies on them to believe in him. I know you keep telling me to “reread Cold Days” or “reread Skin Game” – I know these books; it’s not inexperience that’s giving me this viewpoint, despite the large difference in our postcounts on this online forum. And Karrin taking the swords and Bob at this point is a clear display that she just doesn’t have faith in him to not turn bad at some point in the future. It’s as simple as that.
Karrin is who she has always appeared to Dresden to be when he’s seen her with the Sight: tattered, torn, worn by the world, but trying to do the right thing. I don’t hold it against her that she makes this decision; anyone else might do the same. But I’m not going to look at it and say that she’s doing something good for Dresden, because she’s not. She loves and cares for him, but she has a duty to protect others, and that comes first.
DonBugen:
Oo, another one! Sure, I’ll tackle this.
A. Is nearly punching your friend and ally's head off because you're angry the proper behavior for a custodian of the Swords of the Cross? Dunno. See above. Merlin wasn’t a saint, and Michael was OK with Harry carrying both a coin and a sword. I would loosely say that whether or not a person should carry a sword seems to be something that is not directly related to their personal code of conduct.
B. Why is Butters exempt from any criticism for his clear distrust of Dresden, which directly led to the Sword being broken? He’s not. But the same fear and distrust that Butters puts voice to is the same exact fear and distrust that Murph voices in her entrance and exit from Cold Days. It’s not that Butters is exempt from it; it’s that Murph is also not exempt from it. And my WAG puts suspicion on Murphy because despite her sudden realization and faith and trust in Harry, the results of her actions are negative. Nothing more.
C. Why is Murphy slammed for hiding something from Dresden, while Dresden is not at all criticized for hiding information from Murphy? The information they're hiding is for the same reasons, and neither intended on telling the other that something was hidden. Don’t remember slamming Murphy for this, so maybe someone else can handle this one.
D. How is Harry correct in his assessment that in his state of mind and situation he should give Bob back, but thirty seconds later, he's suddenly absolutely the right and only person who should have the Swords, which are just as important as Bob, and which are at greater risk? Personally, I think that his emotional reaction is because being the custodian of the swords means something to him. Bob, he acknowledges, is just a very powerful tool that’s dangerous in the wrong hands. Harry has a sort of respect for the swords and all it represents, and it hurts to be told he's not worthy anymore.
However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG. The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it. Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.
E. Sanya, a Knight of the Cross, says that someone who is sure they should have the Swords is not someone who should have the Swords. Harry, in Cold Days, is sure he should have the Swords. Is Sanya wrong? Sanya’s human, and the most junior of the Knights. It’s kind of like the old cliché – anyone with a desire for power or leadership has proven that they’re not fit to wield it. I think that these words of Sanya’s aren’t some sort of hard-and-fast code of “What must one do to be a custodian of the Swords?” but rather him stating his personal opinion: “Look, the fact that you’re second-guessing this means that you respect the danger and will not abuse it.” And yes, that’s my opinion, but I feel that it’s sound.
magnuskn:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 16, 2017, 09:58:40 PM ---D. How is Harry correct in his assessment that in his state of mind and situation he should give Bob back, but thirty seconds later, he's suddenly absolutely the right and only person who should have the Swords, which are just as important as Bob, and which are at greater risk? Personally, I think that his emotional reaction is because being the custodian of the swords means something to him. Bob, he acknowledges, is just a very powerful tool that’s dangerous in the wrong hands. Harry has a sort of respect for the swords and all it represents, and it hurts to be told he's not worthy anymore.
However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG. The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it. Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.
--- End quote ---
Two things:
- Saying that Harry only views Bob as a useful tool and has no emotional attachments to him is insane.
- If the TWG decided that Murphy was an unworthy custodian of the swords, do you really believe that they would have left them in her care for two years? They have one active knight who could have come over at any time and taken them. And I don't think Murphy would have second-guessed Sanya for a nanosecond if that would have been the case, since he gets his marching orders directly from the Big Guy.
DonBugen:
Yes, I do think that they wouldn't interfere. The swords are subject to the Free Will of mankind. We have the free will to use them or break them. Uriel's accounting of the results of those choices lead to the conclusion of SG.
Edit: oops, sorry, I forgot to even address the first thing in my haste. It would be insane claim that Dresden feels no emotional attachment to Bob. Dresden states that Bob is his friend, even though he's not a human and it is unprofessional to treat him as anything other than an assistant. However, being the possessor of Bob does not mean anything other than that you hold the skull. It doesn't mean that some divine power has looked upon you and found you worthy. Heck, Kemmler had the skull, and Justin, and we know what wonderful people they are. Michael, and the nights, and TWS's faith in Harry is what always gives him the hope that he isn't going to fall into darkness. And when Karrin says that he shouldn't have the swords anymore, it rips that hope away from him.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Anyways, to answer your questions:
And, again: Is instant violence the kind of response that the rightful custodian of the Swords should have? Depends. Michael knew that Harry was the keeper of the sword of Faith in the same time period that he knew that he had touched a coin and was under a Fallen’s influence. Yet Michael never stepped in and took the sword from him. I think that Michael defers to the judgment of higher powers rather than his own, and I don’t think that the servants of TWG are as swayed by momentary actions as much as the heart and choice of the individual. They also have a different perspective than the average mortal.
--- End quote ---
Very true, and what is missed here is it isn't so much a judgement on whether Murphy was right or wrong not to trust Harry in that moment, but just a stated fact that she didn't trust him, end of story..
--- Quote ---Tell me what text in the books indicates Murphy is "manipulating" him. Tell me what text in the books indicates that Harry should have the Swords in that time and place. Of course, you know that it never explicitly says that Harry should have had the swords in the text of the book. The only one who can determine who *should* have the swords is TWG, and we only see his will as expressed through his servants. Uriel can be trusted to reflect his master’s will; Michael, to a lesser extent – he is human, after all. But it is to be noted that both Michael and Uriel both act with faith and trust in Harry, and so far that faith and trust has not been misplaced. Harry’s actions, while out of character, are completely in character of someone under the power of the Winter Mantle. The only thing out of character are the choices that Harry makes.
--- End quote ---
At the end of Changes the Swords are handed over by Sanya to Harry.. page 432 as he hands Amoracchius over to Harry..
--- Quote ---Uriel placed it in your care. If he wanted it moved, he should say so."
--- End quote ---
Then at the end of Skin Game Michael hands over Amoracchius over to Harry saying he is it's keeper again.. Also explaining about Murphy when Harry questions whether or not he is the right guy to be it's keeper.. page 452 Michael says
--- Quote ---She appointed herself the Swords' keeper after you apparently died.
--- End quote ---
But Heaven knew perfectly well that Harry wasn't dead at that time.. No one from Heaven appointed Murphy, keeper, she took that on upon herself, and didn't do that great a job of it..
--- Quote ---
C. Why is Murphy slammed for hiding something from Dresden, while Dresden is not at all criticized for hiding information from Murphy? The information they're hiding is for the same reasons, and neither intended on telling the other that something was hidden. Don’t remember slamming Murphy for this, so maybe someone else can handle this one.
--- End quote ---
Not the same thing, Harry did keep the facts about Mr Grey from Murphy... However I think it was also pointed out that her house was not a secured spot.. Only Demonreach or a spot with blocks put on by Mab would be safe from Adriel's eavesdropping.. The mission depended on Mr Grey's double agent status, so yeah, he had to keep that from her, he kept it from Michael... Not at all the same thing as her telling him the Swords cannot be used, Harry thinks one is needed.. Telling him she knows because she has faith implying that he didn't. Saying she had no desire to be a Knight for the mission because she doesn't believe in redemption for Denarians... But then she proceeds to conceal the Sword and take it with her, after her speech on the subject had to have reached Nic.. She says nothing to Harry about this, and proceeds to get it broken...
--- Quote ---However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG. The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it. Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.
--- End quote ---
Yes, the Swords have consistently been given into Harry's care by Holy Knights, Sanya, Shiro, Michael and at least once on orders from Uriel.. In contrast, Harry merely told Murphy where the Swords could be found if she needed to use one of them.. All that says he trusts her to be a Knight if need be.. Though even at that point she said she didn't want the job. When she thought Harry was dead as confirmed by Michael and even hinted on by Uriel, she merely took it upon herself to fetch them.. Now she may have been right to do that, but even so she was never appointed their keeper by anyone..
--- Quote ---E. Sanya, a Knight of the Cross, says that someone who is sure they should have the Swords is not someone who should have the Swords. Harry, in Cold Days, is sure he should have the Swords. Is Sanya wrong? Sanya’s human, and the most junior of the Knights. It’s kind of like the old cliché – anyone with a desire for power or leadership has proven that they’re not fit to wield it. I think that these words of Sanya’s aren’t some sort of hard-and-fast code of “What must one do to be a custodian of the Swords?” but rather him stating his personal opinion: “Look, the fact that you’re second-guessing this means that you respect the danger and will not abuse it.” And yes, that’s my opinion, but I feel that it’s sound.
--- End quote ---
Harry expressed those doubts in Changes, he had just killed the mother of his child and wiped out a whole species.. Sanya was agreeing that he should have doubts, but Sanya also trusted in Uriel's judgement, "if he wanted it moved, he'd say so."
--- Quote ---A. Is nearly punching your friend and ally's head off because you're angry the proper behavior for a custodian of the Swords of the Cross? Dunno. See above. Merlin wasn’t a saint, and Michael was OK with Harry carrying both a coin and a sword. I would loosely say that whether or not a person should carry a sword seems to be something that is not directly related to their personal code of conduct.
--- End quote ---
True, at best Sanya is an agnostic yet he is also a Holy Knight..
--- Quote ---B. Why is Butters exempt from any criticism for his clear distrust of Dresden, which directly led to the Sword being broken? He’s not. But the same fear and distrust that Butters puts voice to is the same exact fear and distrust that Murph voices in her entrance and exit from Cold Days. It’s not that Butters is exempt from it; it’s that Murph is also not exempt from it. And my WAG puts suspicion on Murphy because despite her sudden realization and faith and trust in Harry, the results of her actions are negative. Nothing more.
--- End quote ---
Yes, this is why I said you can take Murphy away from the police force, but you cannot take the cop out of Murphy. In many ways she isn't unlike Lt Murphy in the first couple of books, she used Harry, she admired Harry, but she never completely trusted him.. Post Changes given what has gone down with Harry, she doesn't completely trust that he won't turn into a monster.. But Harry doesn't trust himself on that score either, but Michael does trust that he won't.
--- Quote ---You're acting like Murphy is making some kind of power play, when that's not the case. I’m saying that she’s doing her best to protect everyone she knows by limiting the amount of damage Harry could do. And she’s using her trust and loyalty as the lever to get Dresden to listen to her. Yeah, if my WAG is correct then it could also be some sort of dark play to get the swords in custody and destroy one in a totally legit manner, but that’s a WAG.
--- End quote ---
This may be true, my problem with Murphy is she doesn't listen to Harry... She has a lot to say to him but asks no questions.. In a way this is manipulation..
--- Quote ---Michael soulgazed Harry more than a decade ago. A lot has changed in Harry's life since then. True, but remember that the soulgaze is a view of a person’s fundamental self, and Harry has stated more than once that if a person has changed drastically since them they would trigger a new soulgaze.
--- End quote ---
Yes, plus the fact that Michael's connections would know if Harry had gone south..
--- Quote ---Tell me how putting her trust in Harry is "letting fear and doubts" guide her. Because she’s not trusting Harry. She doesn’t trust that he won’t turn evil – she doesn’t get that until Skin Game. At this point, she’s just at the ‘wait and see’ stage. She gives Harry a limited amount of trust IF he also surrenders these articles of power to her.
--- End quote ---
Exactly, Murphy doesn't fully trust Harry, that is not a judgement of her one way or the other..
--- Quote ---I’m not ignoring that Dresden’s going through some really dark stuff. I know how close he is to violence. I know that he relies on his friends to point him in the right direction. But he also relies on them to believe in him. I know you keep telling me to “reread Cold Days” or “reread Skin Game” – I know these books; it’s not inexperience that’s giving me this viewpoint, despite the large difference in our postcounts on this online forum. And Karrin taking the swords and Bob at this point is a clear display that she just doesn’t have faith in him to not turn bad at some point in the future. It’s as simple as that.
--- End quote ---
Again, all true, and again a mere observation, not a judgement of her... The consequences of her lack of faith remains to be seen..
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