The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 16, 2017, 06:26:22 PM ---Two things. First, that’s your reading of the situation, not Harry’s actual statement. What actually happens in that scene is that Karrin tells him that she’s not giving him back the swords and that it’s non-debatable, and Harry does have a violent reaction. She doesn’t back down, touches him, and he submits. Harry’s first-person narrative thought process doesn’t include the same sort of internal processing that he does in the case of Bob. Rather, he just acknowledges that he doesn’t want to lose Karrin or her trust, and gives in to her demands.
--- End quote ---
Maybe because he realizes that the person who would lose Karrin's trust shouldn't have the Swords.
And, again: Is instant violence the kind of response that the rightful custodian of the Swords should have?
He doesn't need to go through the same internal monologue as he did because he already did that and all of the same stuff and more still applies. Why would Butcher copy and paste the same exact things again? What in that paragraph applies to Bob but doesn't apply to the Swords?
I mean, is the argument that Harry is agreeing that he can go bad, and that therefore it's too dangerous for him to have Bob... and then ten seconds later, Harry absolutely cannot go bad and is absolutely the right and only choice to hold the Swords?
Jim does give us this visceral reaction, where Harry is disgusted about what he just did, and what the Mantle is screaming at him to do:
--- Quote ---It hit me, what I was thinking, what my instincts were screaming at me to do, and I suddenly sagged, bowing my head. My breath came out in uneven jerks. I closed my eyes, tried to get it under control.
--- End quote ---
Tell me what text in the books indicates Murphy is "manipulating" him. Tell me what text in the books indicates that Harry should have the Swords in that time and place.
--- Quote ---Second, yeah, she actually is saying that she won’t trust him unless he gives into her demands. She flatly tells him that her trust in him depend on his response “in the next few minutes.” She even says that Bob and the Swords are being taken because terrible things could happen in the wrong hands. This isn’t about giving proof that he’s not some monster. This is about stripping him of the two things that would be the worst thing for a dark monster to possess.
--- End quote ---
Depending on his response meaning, "Showing me that you're still worthy of trust," not "I'll only trust me if you do as I want you to." It's exactly about proof that he's not some monster. You're acting like Murphy is making some kind of power play, when that's not the case.
--- Quote ---That’s your opinion.
--- End quote ---
That the two exchanges happen more than a year apart and that Harry's mindset and control of the Mantle are in very different places is not a matter of opinion. They're observable, explicit fact.
--- Quote ---Michael has seen Harry at his best and his worst. He’s soulgazed Harry, and knows what’s in his heart. What’s more, Michael knows firsthand about Choice and free will. He also demonstrates that he understands to a degree what the mantle does to the mind of the person in possession of it, and what it does not do – strip them of the freedom to choose. Michael’s moment of doubt with Harry happened long ago, in Small Favor, and he choose to believe in his friend despite evidence to the contrary, because he knows the man.
--- End quote ---
Michael did not see Harry nearly pound Murphy's head into the wall. Michael did not see Harry having to mentally hold back from viciously raping his daughter. Michael did not see Harry agreeing to "watch the world burn" to get what he wants.
Michael soulgazed Harry more than a decade ago. A lot has changed in Harry's life since then.
Michael is not omniscient. He does not see everything. He has a lot of faith in Harry, but remember that Michael also gave Nicodemus the chance to repent. Michael sees the best in everybody.
--- Quote ---Michael’s just a man. He was a Knight, but he’s no better than anyone else, and would be the first to acknowledge his own faults and flaws. He and Murphy share a lot in regard to background and faith. He showed in The Warrior that he can be irrationally scared for others and for his family, and can also be tempted to do terrible things. But he also has his faith and trust in the right things. He has a grounding which guides him, whereas Murph is letting her fears and doubts guide her.
--- End quote ---
So, Michael when he's talking about Dresden is spot on and perfect, because he is totally on the money on Dresden despite not seeing him for more than a year and not witnessing what the Mantle has done to him, but when it comes to Murphy, he's "just a man" "no better than anyone else"?
Tell me how putting her trust in Harry is "letting fear and doubts" guide her.
--- Quote ---When you see Harry in Cold Days, you see a man who’s a hair’s breadth away from doing all sorts of unspeakable acts. I see someone who, despite all of the temptations and hormones and magical influences, is strongly choosing to say NO to those things. Choice and free will have a power all of their own in the Dresden Files. It was Will which broke the bonds of Mother Winter, Choice which gave Harry the strength to defy Mab on his first conscious moments in Demonreach at the end of Ghost Story.
--- End quote ---
Harry is not a perfect paragon. He has made bad choices. Hell, he made the Sword vulnerable years before Murphy did.
He's a good man, but in Cold Days, he's in a bad place. An alcoholic might be a good man, but you don't give him the keys to his car when he's in the middle of a bender. You wait until he's in a better place.
That's all Murphy was doing. You cannot ignore that Harry is working through a lot of dark stuff in Cold Days.
--- Quote ---Choice has power, and Harry never loses the power of choice.
--- End quote ---
No, but he has influences on him that will change what he chooses. One of which, in Cold Days, is brand new to him and a very powerful influence that he's still trying to get control of.
You are ignoring that. Harry is strong because of his friends, because they will support him and will call him out when he needs it. Being a friend doesn't just mean rubber stamping everything Harry wants to do.
magnuskn:
I know this is trite since I already said it, but I'm 100% in agreement with Mr. Death's opinion. Just thought I needed to say it again because this discussion is fascinating to watch.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: magnuskn on August 16, 2017, 07:02:29 PM ---I know this is trite since I already said it, but I'm 100% in agreement with Mr. Death's opinion. Just thought I needed to say it again because this discussion is fascinating to watch.
--- End quote ---
Thank you. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't think Murphy is some kind of arrogant, power-playing manipulator just out to screw Dresden (or at least, the most vocal) and it's nice to get a little support now and again.
Rasins:
WOW ... you guys sure do type a lot.
magnuskn:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 16, 2017, 07:08:50 PM ---Thank you. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't think Murphy is some kind of arrogant, power-playing manipulator just out to screw Dresden (or at least, the most vocal) and it's nice to get a little support now and again.
--- End quote ---
I'm actually flummoxed about that interpretation of her. She and Harry went through some incredibly rough times since Changes and it is natural that him coming back to life with the burden of the hyper-aggressive mantle would put even additional strain on both of them, aside from all the other issues Harry's death brought on.
But, given those circumstances, I'm always very happy to see how much absolute trust Murphy has for Harry as a person and how, especially in Skin Game, she was willing to set aside her own problems to help him out, without asking anything in return.
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