The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
DonBugen:
--- Quote ---You've heard they re-recorded it with Marsters, yes?
--- End quote ---
Well, yeah, and I have it thanks to Audible – but I’ve been listening to Glover for so long that I’ve become conflicted. Glover can’t Fuego worth crap, but his Sir Stuart and Morty are far superior to Marsters’.
Ghost Story is just my least favorite Dresden novel, and it honestly it has nothing to do with Glover. Storm Front and Fool Moon, awkward as they were, at least had Harry acting as a PI in it. Ghost Story is just a strange, surreal mope-fest with a completely alien Chicago. There are bits and pieces that I love and will come back to – mostly, the interactions with Uriel and Chicago Between and all scenes with Morty. But I can’t stand Dresden’s constant mental beating of himself, and the Fitz B-plot just doesn’t impact the main story in any meaningful way.
--- Quote --- Then why does Harry not protest it? Why does Harry ask her instead of trying to assert his authority? Why does Harry never object to the idea of her having the Swords? The one time he does, she points out that he's not in the right frame of mind and Harry explicitly acknowledges that she is correct.
Please provide a quote of someone who says she's not supposed to have the Swords. You have been pushing that argument for years and have not once been able to provide an example of anyone actually saying so.
--- End quote ---
I’ll actually do that. Karrin says that she’s found where he’s hidden the swords and took them, which she did against his will. Technically theft, either against the still-technically-alive Dresden or his next-of-kin. She then tells him that she will not surrender them under any circumstances and won’t say where they are. And Dresden is furious, far angrier than he was when Karrin asks him to surrender Bob.
--- Quote ---"I’m not telling you where they are. I’m not giving them back to you. I’m not negotiating."
I exhaled slowly. A slow, hard anger rolled to a knot in my guts. “Those were my responsibility.”
“They were,” she said. There was something absolutely rigid in her blue eyes. “Not anymore.”
--- End quote ---
Karrin holds the swords hostage, and refuses to give her trust or loyalty to Dresden unless he gives in to her demands. Her actions are brutal, emotionally manipulative, and both prey upon and enforce Dresden’s doubt, shame, and guilt – something that he doesn’t get over until he gets real trust from Michael in Skin Game. Karrin wavers around with her trust issues; Michael laughs at the thought that Harry even really could turn bad. Michael has ten times the trust in Harry than Karrin does.
--- Quote ---She seemed to understand what I was going through. She didn’t push me. She just held my hands and waited until my breathing steadied. “Harry,” she said quietly. “Do you want my trust?”
I nodded tightly, not trusting myself to speak.
“Then you’re going to have to give me some. I’m on your side. I’m trying to help you. Let it go.”
I shuddered. “OK,” I said.
--- End quote ---
Dresden doesn’t want to give Karrin the swords, but because of Karrin’s mistrust in him he believes that he just can’t be trusted at all. That is NOT trust. That is actually a toxic situation. Karrin can literally demand whatever she want. Karrin does exactly the same thing in Cold Days as Butters does in Skin Game: dumps all of her fears and insecurities on Dresden and expects him to conform to her idea of what he *should* be. Karrin is not in a good place in Cold Days, and because she’s one of the people that Dresden loves and cares for most, it really harms him.
Michael sets things right at the end of Skin Game. He calls things for what they are, and asserts that Karrin wasn’t called to be a custodian of the swords. He gives his sword back to Harry for safekeeping, asserting that Harry is the right person for the job. And his REAL trust in Dresden is what finally makes Harry choose, at the end, to have faith in himself. It's what finally convinces him that there's light at the end of the tunnel, and that it's possible that he could actually withstand Mab's influence and not turn into a monster.
--- Quote ---“Because I did such an amazing job the last time around?”
“Actually,” Michael said, “You did an excellent job. You defended the swords from those who would try to claim them. And you issued them to people who would use them well.”
“Murphy didn’t,” I said quietly. “I mean, I know it worked out in the end, but my judgment was obviously in error.“
“But you didn’t call her to be a true Knight,” Michael said. You entrusted her with the sword for one purpose: to help you save your little girl from Chichen Itza. She appointed herself the swords’ keeper after you apparently died. And this morning, you gave the Sword of Faith to the right person at the right time.”
“That was an accident.”
“I don’t believe in accidents,” Michael said. “Not where the swords are concerned.”
--- End quote ---
This is another reason that I think that there’s something going on here. You call this love and trust. I call this abuse and manipulation. I’m sorry, but I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em. Just because Karrin thinks she’s being the swords’ custodian out of concern for the Swords and what they represent and out of care for Harry doesn’t make it so. Karrin appointed herself custodian of the swords out of fear of what Dresden might turn into and manipulated Harry into believing the same. And Harry would have been a lot better off if Karrin would have just shown him support, rather than demonstrating that she didn’t think he could be trusted.
So, to answer your questions: Then why does Harry not protest it? He does, loudly, angrily, and gets stonewalled. Why does Harry ask her instead of trying to assert his authority? Because he's in complete guilt and doubt - something that's a theme of Skin Game, as alluded to in its very first sentences. Why does Harry never object to the idea of her having the Swords? Because Karrin's convinced him that she's in a much better place to make these judgments than he is, and Harry believes her when she shows her mistrust in him. The one time he does, she points out that he's not in the right frame of mind and Harry explicitly acknowledges that she is correct. Yes, and he chooses to believe his own fears and the doubts and fears of those closest to him, rather than the word and trust from agents of a being who is arguably infinitely beneficent and omniscient. In other words: Harry was WRONG to doubt that he could be custodian of the swords. And Karrin was the one who manipulated him into that conclusion. He would never have reached it by himself.
Mira:
--- Quote ---She said nothing to him about it because she's smart enough to realize that someone is listening. Why else would Harry not give her information when they're talking in the privacy of her own, warded home?
--- End quote ---
But not smart enough by that logic to realize that that same person will know about her concealing the Holy Sword and how she really felt about it and set her up... So she isn't that smart, or she lacked trust in Harry.
--- Quote ---Again: Nothing to do with her not trusting Harry. Especially since her actions were exactly what Harry asked her to do in the first place. The whole "thought she knew better than Harry" idea simply is not evidenced in text of the books.
--- End quote ---
But then why argue about what a bad idea it was? Why not tell Harry what she planned to do... Hey carrying a Holy Sword on this kind of mission is all about open carry, not permitted concealment...
--- Quote ---Harry has a secret trump card that he doesn't tell her about, and yet you're not talking about Harry's lack of trust in her. Why is that?
--- End quote ---
Um, you know perfectly well why.... If they had been on Demonreach, or if Mab had been there to do her thing, he may have told her. At least he was up front telling her there were things he could not tell her.. Need to know, Murphy didn't need to know, plus as you say her place wasn't secure...
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 16, 2017, 04:46:43 PM ---I’ll actually do that. Karrin says that she’s found where he’s hidden the swords and took them, which she did against his will. Technically theft, either against the still-technically-alive Dresden or his next-of-kin. She then tells him that she will not surrender them under any circumstances and won’t say where they are. And Dresden is furious, far angrier than he was when Karrin asks him to surrender Bob. Karrin holds the swords hostage, and refuses to give her trust or loyalty to Dresden unless he gives in to her demands. Her actions are brutal, emotionally manipulative, and both prey upon and enforce Dresden’s doubt, shame, and guilt – something that he doesn’t get over until he gets real trust from Michael in Skin Game. Karrin wavers around with her trust issues; Michael laughs at the thought that Harry even really could turn bad. Michael has ten times the trust in Harry than Karrin does.
--- End quote ---
You're looking at two different times in Harry's life.
When Karrin is talking about the Swords in Cold Days, yes, Harry is furious with her -- out of character levels of furious, and comes to within inches of smashing her skull in. That is why she doesn't give up the Swords, because she can recognize that he is not in a place at that point in time that the Swords would be safe with him. When he stops and thinks, Harry recognizes that too, and does not further protest.
Murphy isn't saying, "I'll only trust you if you accede to my demands." She's saying, "The last time we spoke, you told me Mab was going to turn you into a monster. You're acting suspiciously un-Harry-like. Before I trust you, I need to see proof that you're not the monster you explicitly told me you were going to become last time we talked, and show that you're still worthy of that trust."
Michael, however, only sees Harry again after Harry has spent a year and change mastering the Mantle. Michael talks to a Harry who is not on the verge of murdering and raping his friends and long-time allies for perceived slights.
Remember in Changes that Harry explicitly and directly asks Murphy to see to his effects and his will. You don't think the Swords were part of that?
--- Quote ---“If . . . Look. I have a will in a lockbox at the National Bank on
Michigan. If something should happen to me . . . I’d appreciate it if
you’d see to it. You’re on the list of people who can open it. Listed
as executor.”
“Harry,” she said.
“Granted, there’s not much to have a will about at the moment,” I
said. “Everything was in my house or office, but . . . there are some
intangibles and . . .” I felt my throat tighten, and cut short my
request. “Take care of it for me?”
--- End quote ---
The Paranet Papers (which takes place post Ghost Story) explicitly names Murphy as executor of his will and that he entrusted her with the Swords. And note that Ghost Story that Harry is not in the least bit surprised that Murphy has the Swords -- almost as if he already knew and expected that she'd have them. I wonder why.
--- Quote ---A dead silence settled on the room, into which Sir Stuart asked
me, conversationally, “Which swords?”
“The Swords of the Cross,” I said quietly, out of habit—I could
have sung it operatically without anyone there noticing. “The ones
with the nails from the Crucifixion worked into them.”
...
“Yeah,” I said, deadpan. “The little blond woman has two of
them.”
“Oh, my,” Sir Stuart said, his voice muted with respect. “I can
see why you’d come to her for assistance.”
“Damn skippy,” I agreed. “Better go get Morty while she’s still in
a good mood.”
--- End quote ---
Yeah, that sure sounds like a Harry that didn't think Murphy should have the Swords. You can just feel the shock and outrage at her audacity in his words and description, can't you?
Note also at the end of Changes that Harry only tells Murphy where they are. He explicitly tells her that the Sword is in the boat if she wants it. He didn't tell anyone else this. Do you think Harry expected and wanted the Swords to just sit in the boat, unguarded?
--- Quote ---Dresden doesn’t want to give Karrin the swords, but because of Karrin’s mistrust in him he believes that he just can’t be trusted at all. That is NOT trust. That is actually a toxic situation. Karrin can literally demand whatever she want. Karrin does exactly the same thing in Cold Days as Butters does in Skin Game: dumps all of her fears and insecurities on Dresden and expects him to conform to her idea of what he *should* be. Karrin is not in a good place in Cold Days, and because she’s one of the people that Dresden loves and cares for most, it really harms him.
--- End quote ---
No, he believes he can't be trusted with the Swords because his instant reaction to her calm refusal was to punch the wall next to her head before he even realized what he was doing.
You talk about Murphy being in a bad place in Cold Days -- are you ignoring that Harry has the Mantle hammering his "Murder/Rape/Murderrape" button the entire book?
Do you really think the person holding the Swords should be someone who has to make a concentrated, conscious effort to keep himself from smashing one of his best friends' heads in just because she calmly refused a request of his?
--- Quote ---Michael sets things right at the end of Skin Game. He calls things for what they are, and asserts that Karrin wasn’t called to be a custodian of the swords. He gives his sword back to Harry for safekeeping, asserting that Harry is the right person for the job. And his REAL trust in Dresden is what finally makes Harry choose, at the end, to have faith in himself. It's what finally convinces him that there's light at the end of the tunnel, and that it's possible that he could actually withstand Mab's influence and not turn into a monster.
--- End quote ---
Michael doesn't say she wasn't supposed to be Custodian -- just that she appointed herself. He never says she was wrong to take them. And, again, Michael did not see Harry during Cold Days.
I think if Michael saw a Harry who was a hair's breadth from raping his daughter and Andi and who had to physically hold himself back from smashing Murphy's head in for having the audacity to say no to him, he might say something different.
Harry changes a lot between the two books. Harry in Skin Game is much more in control and much closer to his Pre-Changes self than he is in Cold Days.
While we're on the subject of Michael and his flawless and always-entirely-correct assessment of people, what does he have to say about Murphy in Skin Game, when Harry says he's bringing her along? He says "Good!" and thumps his beer on the table for extra emphasis, and continues to say she has both brains and heart.
So if we're going to take Michael's word as, for lack of better word, gospel when it comes to the disposition of the Swords, are we going to dismiss what he has to say about Murphy personally?
--- Quote ---This is another reason that I think that there’s something going on here. You call this love and trust. I call this abuse and manipulation. I’m sorry, but I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em. Just because Karrin thinks she’s being the swords’ custodian out of concern for the Swords and what they represent and out of care for Harry doesn’t make it so. Karrin appointed herself custodian of the swords out of fear of what Dresden might turn into and manipulated Harry into believing the same. And Harry would have been a lot better off if Karrin would have just shown him support, rather than demonstrating that she didn’t think he could be trusted.
--- End quote ---
You're either forgetting or ignoring Harry's state during Cold Days.
She didn't appoint herself custodian out of fear of Dresden (even if we accept the highly unlikely premise that Harry didn't say anything at all to her about the Swords, she "appointed herself" when Harry was dead and she didn't know he was coming back), and she didn't "manipulate" Harry into believing anything -- Harry was already scared of what he would become under the Mantle, and he realized, "Hey, I almost just smashed Murphy's head in. Maybe I shouldn't be the person who's guarding three of the most important artifacts on Earth."
There is exactly one time when we're given any kind of explicit opinion on who should keep a Sword or not that isn't just, "You will know what to do," and handily, it comes from one of the Knights:
--- Quote ---Wordlessly, he offered me Amoracchius. I stared at the Sword
for a moment.
“I’m not so sure I should have that,” I said.
“If you were,” he said, “I wouldn’t want you to have it. Uriel placed
it in your care. If he wanted it moved, he should say so.”
--- End quote ---
So, Sanya says if Harry was "sure" he should have the Swords, Sanya wouldn't want him to have them.
In Cold Days, Harry is damn sure he should have the Swords.
Harry is expressing the exact criteria under which Sanya said he would not want Harry to have the Swords.
--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2017, 04:53:48 PM ---But not smart enough by that logic to realize that that same person will know about her concealing the Holy Sword and how she really felt about it and set her up... So she isn't that smart, or she lacked trust in Harry.
--- End quote ---
What? There is nothing in that sentence that logically points to her not trusting Harry.
Please tell me how her saying "I'm not bringing a Sword," translates into "I'm concealing a Sword" to Nicodemus -- who, again, explicitly says he wasn't sure if she'd brought it along.
Please tell me how openly admitting she had the Sword would have somehow not allowed Nicodemus to manipulate her into breaking it. Hell, it would've been easier if he'd known for certain that she had it.
--- Quote ---But then why argue about what a bad idea it was? Why not tell Harry what she planned to do... Hey carrying a Holy Sword on this kind of mission is all about open carry, not permitted concealment...
--- End quote ---
Who says that? Where are the rules written down? Or is Michael breaking those rules when he carries the Sword in a duffelbag? Or Shiro, when he conceals his Sword in a cane?
You seem to be pretty darn sure about a lot of the rules about wielding or holding a Sword. Care to tell us where you're getting this information? And why that information is directly contradicting how we've seen full-time Knights conceal their Swords, even when on official business?
--- Quote ---Um, you know perfectly well why.... If they had been on Demonreach, or if Mab had been there to do her thing, he may have told her. At least he was up front telling her there were things he could not tell her.. Need to know, Murphy didn't need to know, plus as you say her place wasn't secure...
--- End quote ---
All of those things apply to Murphy as well as they do to Dresden.
If they had been on Demonreach, or if Mab had been there to do her thing, Murphy may have told him.
As for Harry being up front, he only told her there was something he couldn't tell her after she directly asked him about the missing three hours. If Murphy hadn't asked, Harry wouldn't have mentioned it at all.
So again: Why does Harry get a pass for hiding things from Murphy, but Murphy hiding something from Harry for the exact same reasons means she distrusts him?
And there's one other question in my post that you didn't answer, Mira.
--- Quote ---Mira, please answer this question directly: Why do you constantly come down on Murphy for not trusting Dresden, without ever even acknowledging that Butters' clear, explicit distrust in Dresden created the situation in the first place?
Is placing a secret tracking bug somehow more a sign of trust than agreeing to go with Dresden knowing he's not giving you information and putting your life in his hands?
--- End quote ---
Please answer that.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 16, 2017, 04:46:43 PM ---So, to answer your questions:
--- End quote ---
Again, this all completely ignores Harry's mindset, and attributes actions and motivations to Murphy that are completely wrong and not presented by anything in the books.
You're acting like Murphy somehow is the only reason that Harry thinks he can become a monster, when Harry is the one who has been saying exactly that about Mab for several books.
Again, I refer you to Sanya's words: If Harry was sure he should have the Swords, then he shouldn't have the Swords.
You're arguing that someone who is on the verge of physical violence against one of his closest, oldest friends for a perceived slight about what that someone is "entitled" to is the kind of person who should have the Swords, when the books make it clear that the exact opposite is the case.
But one by one...
--- Quote --- Then why does Harry not protest it? He does, loudly, angrily, and gets stonewalled.
--- End quote ---
So in your opinion, loudly and angrily attacking someone to get what you want is the correct behavior for a Custodian of the Swords? Do you believe Buzz in The Warrior was right to do so against Dresden, then?
--- Quote ---Why does Harry ask her instead of trying to assert his authority? Because he's in complete guilt and doubt - something that's a theme of Skin Game, as alluded to in its very first sentences.
--- End quote ---
What in his manner and words in that conversation expresses guilt and doubt? It reads to me a lot more like he simply accepted that she was right.
--- Quote ---Why does Harry never object to the idea of her having the Swords? Because Karrin's convinced him that she's in a much better place to make these judgments than he is, and Harry believes her when she shows her mistrust in him.
--- End quote ---
You're painting her as some kind of manipulator, which plainly is not the case. I mean, read the Cold Days conversation again. Her "convincing" amounts mostly to standing there silently while Harry works things out in his own mind.
--- Quote ---The one time he does, she points out that he's not in the right frame of mind and Harry explicitly acknowledges that she is correct. Yes, and he chooses to believe his own fears and the doubts and fears of those closest to him, rather than the word and trust from agents of a being who is arguably infinitely beneficent and omniscient. In other words: Harry was WRONG to doubt that he could be custodian of the swords. And Karrin was the one who manipulated him into that conclusion. He would never have reached it by himself.
--- End quote ---
Again, the "word and trust" of Michael comes more than a year later. More than a year of explicitly mastering the Mantle later. It does not come when Harry is on the verge of raping Molly and Andi just because they sassed back to him and happened to be weakened, respectively.
You're right. He wouldn't have reached it himself. Because sometimes people need their friends to point out when they're being boneheads. Exactly like Murphy did in White Night, in regard to Lasciel.
Harry under the intense influence of the Mantle in Cold Days is the wrong person to have the Swords. Sanya basically said so. Harry admitted as much. Harry's story is about him overcoming his flaws -- don't try to pretend they're not there so you can blame Murphy for things that she didn't do.
It's like arguing that Susan was wrong to be horrified by Harry when he was a Hexenwulf, because in Death Masks, Shiro trusted Harry with the Sword. You're talking about Harry in two very different mindsets, in two very different situations and times in his life, and acting like he's exactly the same in both.
DonBugen:
--- Quote --- When Karrin is talking about the Swords in Cold Days, yes, Harry is furious with her -- out of character levels of furious, and comes to within inches of smashing her skull in. That is why she doesn't give up the Swords, because she can recognize that he is not in a place at that point in time that the Swords would be safe with him. When he stops and thinks, Harry recognizes that too, and does not further protest.
Murphy isn't saying, "I'll only trust you if you accede to my demands." She's saying, "The last time we spoke, you told me Mab was going to turn you into a monster. You're acting suspiciously un-Harry-like. Before I trust you, I need to see proof that you're not the monster you explicitly told me you were going to become last time we talked, and show that you're still worthy of that trust."
--- End quote ---
Two things. First, that’s your reading of the situation, not Harry’s actual statement. What actually happens in that scene is that Karrin tells him that she’s not giving him back the swords and that it’s non-debatable, and Harry does have a violent reaction. She doesn’t back down, touches him, and he submits. Harry’s first-person narrative thought process doesn’t include the same sort of internal processing that he does in the case of Bob. Rather, he just acknowledges that he doesn’t want to lose Karrin or her trust, and gives in to her demands.
Second, yeah, she actually is saying that she won’t trust him unless he gives into her demands. She flatly tells him that her trust in him depend on his response “in the next few minutes.” She even says that Bob and the Swords are being taken because terrible things could happen in the wrong hands. This isn’t about giving proof that he’s not some monster. This is about stripping him of the two things that would be the worst thing for a dark monster to possess.
--- Quote --- Michael, however, only sees Harry again after Harry has spent a year and change mastering the Mantle. Michael talks to a Harry who is not on the verge of murdering and raping his friends and long-time allies for perceived slights.
I think if Michael saw a Harry who was a hair's breadth from raping his daughter and Andi and who had to physically hold himself back from smashing Murphy's head in for having the audacity to say no to him, he might say something different.
--- End quote ---
That’s your opinion. Michael has seen Harry at his best and his worst. He’s soulgazed Harry, and knows what’s in his heart. What’s more, Michael knows firsthand about Choice and free will. He also demonstrates that he understands to a degree what the mantle does to the mind of the person in possession of it, and what it does not do – strip them of the freedom to choose. Michael’s moment of doubt with Harry happened long ago, in Small Favor, and he choose to believe in his friend despite evidence to the contrary, because he knows the man.
Michael’s just a man. He was a Knight, but he’s no better than anyone else, and would be the first to acknowledge his own faults and flaws. He and Murphy share a lot in regard to background and faith. He showed in The Warrior that he can be irrationally scared for others and for his family, and can also be tempted to do terrible things. But he also has his faith and trust in the right things. He has a grounding which guides him, whereas Murph is letting her fears and doubts guide her.
When you see Harry in Cold Days, you see a man who’s a hair’s breadth away from doing all sorts of unspeakable acts. I see someone who, despite all of the temptations and hormones and magical influences, is strongly choosing to say NO to those things. Choice and free will have a power all of their own in the Dresden Files. It was Will which broke the bonds of Mother Winter, Choice which gave Harry the strength to defy Mab on his first conscious moments in Demonreach at the end of Ghost Story.
--- Quote ---“The thing is,” I said quietly, “the sword’s keeper needs clear judgment more than anything else and I’m not sure I have it anymore.”
“Why not?” Michael asked.
“Because of the Winter Mantle. Because of Mab. If I take the sword, bad things could happen down the line.”
“Of course they could,” Michael said. “But I don’t believe for a second that they would happen because you chose to make them happen.”
“That’s what I mean,” I said. “What if… What if Mab gets to me eventually?” I waved my hand. “Stars and stones, I just spent the weekend working with Denarians on behalf of freaking Marcone. I’ve had this job for what, a couple of years? What will I be like five years from now, or ten, or a hundred and fifty?”
“I don’t believe that for a second,” Michael said. “I know you.”
--- End quote ---
Choice has power, and Harry never loses the power of choice.
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