The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 16, 2017, 01:36:44 PM ---Positions were way different. Both of them were rulers, and rulers don't tend to be questioned or looked at too closely by their followers. How many kings and queens get away with all kinds of outlandish shit because they're wearing the crown and will smite anyone who questions what they're doing?
The people who would know what to look for (Mab and Titania) did know that something was wrong because they were acting wrong.
--- End quote ---
They were princesses, not Rulers. Mab and Titania both didnt twig to any problem until it was way too late.
DonBugen:
OK, I think I had a bit of a misconception on what the Brighter Future Society really is. I had thought it was an organization of Marcone’s dedicated to keeping Marcone’s interests safe from supernatural interference, and that they were part of the greater Chicago Alliance. Karrin basically works through the BFS, and Butters states that the two of them are part of it, so I had thought that Karrin eventually changed her mind and went on Marcone’s payroll. It’s not like she has another employer or anything, and I doubt she’s getting by well on savings and what little comes from the half-pension she was able to get. Everyone else we see in the BFS (basically all the einherjar) is being paid by Marcone to be there, so why not her?
However, when Bob mentions that the BFS provides daycare, Butters does mention that members have jobs. Butters also still works in the Forensic Institute. So no – Karrin might be a member of the BFS, might work with Marcone and his crew, might even ally with them. But as she’s not an employee, she’s not beholden to him, and is only part of his organization on an auxiliary level. It’s not nothing, but it doesn’t carry with it the same level of indebtedness. It also, presumably, doesn’t carry with it the same level of protection that Marcone would offer any of his loyal employees.
So that's one less way that Karrin's changed recently. While I'm not denying that she still could be under some sort of influence, it seems far less likely.
I blame John Glover. I don’t listen to Ghost Story half as much as the rest.
Quantus: Mab noticed the problem between four and six years before Cold Days, and just couldn't do anything about it as her knight was on ice. And Titania wouldn't necessarily have noticed simply because she probably doesn't have that much interaction with the Winter Lady. That being said, Nemesis is acknowledged as being incredibly difficult to really tell for certain.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 16, 2017, 01:47:58 PM ---OK, I think I had a bit of a misconception on what the Brighter Future Society really is. I had thought it was an organization of Marcone’s dedicated to keeping Marcone’s interests safe from supernatural interference, and that they were part of the greater Chicago Alliance. Karrin basically works through the BFS, and Butters states that the two of them are part of it, so I had thought that Karrin eventually changed her mind and went on Marcone’s payroll. It’s not like she has another employer or anything, and I doubt she’s getting by well on savings and what little comes from the half-pension she was able to get. Everyone else we see in the BFS (basically all the einherjar) is being paid by Marcone to be there, so why not her?
However, when Bob mentions that the BFS provides daycare, Butters does mention that members have jobs. Butters also still works in the Forensic Institute. So no – Karrin might be a member of the BFS, might work with Marcone and his crew, might even ally with them. But as she’s not an employee, she’s not beholden to him, and is only part of his organization on an auxiliary level. It’s not nothing, but it doesn’t carry with it the same level of indebtedness. It also, presumably, doesn’t carry with it the same level of protection that Marcone would offer any of his loyal employees.
So that's one less way that Karrin's changed recently. While I'm not denying that she still could be under some sort of influence, it seems far less likely.
--- End quote ---
The scene that really clarified the structure of the BFS for me was the meeting at Murphy's house. BFS membership seemed to include the White Court, the Paranet, Marcone, and the more nebulously defined Scooby Gang (Not sure if Forthill is acting as a Church rep or simply personal support). Murphy's main role seems to be the organizing force, the one with connections to all the others. Marcone is provides a lot of the money and so is the Patron (whenever Lara is not, Im guessing), but Murphy seems to lead the coalition.
--- Quote ---I blame John Glover. I don’t listen to Ghost Story half as much as the rest.
--- End quote ---
You've heard they re-recorded it with Marsters, yes?
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 16, 2017, 01:47:58 PM ---Quantus: Mab noticed the problem between four and six years before Cold Days, and just couldn't do anything about it as her knight was on ice. And Titania wouldn't necessarily have noticed simply because she probably doesn't have that much interaction with the Winter Lady. That being said, Nemesis is acknowledged as being incredibly difficult to really tell for certain.
--- End quote ---
Mab also didnt notice it until several years after the initial Infection and after she already knew it had infiltrated the top of her court in Lea. Titania was apparently fairly close to Aurora, and best evidence puts her nemfection at GP timeframe at the latest. That's still a good bit of time, enough to say that the Nemfected are reasonably talented infiltrators. Maeve was the low-end but she was a bit drunk on her new Deception Superpower.
And fwiw, Mab did not at all /need/ her Knight to deal with Maeve, she simply didnt want to have to do it personally. She only /needs/ to use her Knight when attacking somebody entirely unaffiliated with the Courts.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mira, her bringing the Sword along has absolutely nothing to do with her not trusting Harry.
--- End quote ---
Actually it did because she lied to him. You don't lie to people you trust. He wanted a Knight and a Sword along, she said she couldn't be a Knight for some very good reasons, but she also said it wasn't up to him anymore to find someone, because she was custodian now.. Then she took it upon herself to decide, take the Sword anyway in spite of the danger she knowingly put it in feeling the way she did, and said nothing to him about it. You may not think so, but I my mind that is total lack of trust.. Whether it came from her own insecurity or arrogance or what, she didn't ask his opinion of whether or not she should ignore her true feelings and bring it along anyway.. She either didn't trust his judgement over her own, or didn't want to hear it...
--- Quote ---Agreeing to walk into Hades with him? That is trusting Harry.
--- End quote ---
Yes, no one is arguing against that... However choosing to do it her way not leveling with Harry that she was willing to put a Holy Sword as risk given how she felt... Says she didn't trust Harry to agree with her after what she said about not going along with the creed of the Holy Knights and wielding a Holy Sword.. In other words, she thought she knew better than Harry... That is trust my friend, if I think I know better than you do, that says I don't fully trust your judgement.. Her love of Harry may have motivated her willingness to follow him into Hades, but her lack of trust in his judgement got a Sword broken..
--- Quote ---Agreeing to do so even when it means walking alongside Nicodemus? That is trusting Harry.
--- End quote ---
Again, she thought she knew better than Harry, she kept important information from him... You don't do that with people you fully trust.. And in the process she made him feel really rotten about himself...
--- Quote ---Those are the pertinent actions she takes in Skin Game. Her bringing and using the Sword has nothing to do with trust.
--- End quote ---
Wrong, everything to do with trust... As a result the mission almost didn't come off because Murphy put more trust in her judgement than Harry's... 1] She tells him why she cannot be a Knight and wield a Sword.. 2] She tells him he isn't in charge of the Swords anymore, she is, which wasn't true.. 3] Because she says this to him he has to alter his plans for the mission not knowing she is bringing the Sword anyway.. It could be she merely lost perspective the last couple of years because of what both of them have went through... But it could also be a throw back to the Murphy we used to know in the earlier books, the cop that worked with but didn't fully trust Harry.. She came to trust him, but so much about him has changed since Changes, you might take Murphy out of the police force, but you cannot take the cop out of Murphy.. Yes, she loves him so says she trusts him fully, but there elements of Harry's life now that make the cop in Murphy raise an eyebrow and not fully trust, in spite of herself.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 16, 2017, 01:41:33 PM ---They were princesses, not Rulers. Mab and Titania both didnt twig to any problem until it was way too late.
--- End quote ---
Princesses with their own personal courts and retinues. Princes and princesses get away with just as much, if not more, crazy bullshit as their parents might (see: Joffrey), so the point still stands.
And as pointed out, Mab knew years before Cold Days. Titania admits in Cold Days to having known something needed to be done about Aurora.
--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2017, 02:55:50 PM ---Actually it did because she lied to him. You don't lie to people you trust. He wanted a Knight and a Sword along, she said she couldn't be a Knight for some very good reasons, but she also said it wasn't up to him anymore to find someone, because she was custodian now.. Then she took it upon herself to decide, take the Sword anyway in spite of the danger she knowingly put it in feeling the way she did, and said nothing to him about it. You may not think so, but I my mind that is total lack of trust.. Whether it came from her own insecurity or arrogance or what, she didn't ask his opinion of whether or not she should ignore her true feelings and bring it along anyway.. She either didn't trust his judgement over her own, or didn't want to hear it...
--- End quote ---
She said nothing to him about it because she's smart enough to realize that someone is listening. Why else would Harry not give her information when they're talking in the privacy of her own, warded home?
She doesn't think that Harry doesn't trust her. Harry wouldn't be asking her to be his second if he didn't trust her. So she knows that his silence isn't about her -- the only logical conclusion there is that someone else might be listening in.
Harry has a secret trump card that he doesn't tell her about, and yet you're not talking about Harry's lack of trust in her. Why is that?
--- Quote ---Yes, no one is arguing against that... However choosing to do it her way not leveling with Harry that she was willing to put a Holy Sword as risk given how she felt... Says she didn't trust Harry to agree with her after what she said about not going along with the creed of the Holy Knights and wielding a Holy Sword.. In other words, she thought she knew better than Harry... That is trust my friend, if I think I know better than you do, that says I don't fully trust your judgement.. Her love of Harry may have motivated her willingness to follow him into Hades, but her lack of trust in his judgement got a Sword broken..
--- End quote ---
Again: Nothing to do with her not trusting Harry. Especially since her actions were exactly what Harry asked her to do in the first place. The whole "thought she knew better than Harry" idea simply is not evidenced in text of the books.
I mean, is this what you think went through Murphy's head? "Harry doesn't know what he's doing, asking me to bring a Sword. I'll show him I know better -- by bringing the Sword exactly like he asked me to do!"
--- Quote ---Again, she thought she knew better than Harry, she kept important information from him... You don't do that with people you fully trust.. And in the process she made him feel really rotten about himself...
--- End quote ---
You're attributing motivations to Murphy that are not in evidence in the book.
--- Quote ---Wrong, everything to do with trust... As a result the mission almost didn't come off because Murphy put more trust in her judgement than Harry's...
--- End quote ---
I think you misspelled "Butters" there.
Mira, please answer this question directly: Why do you constantly come down on Murphy for not trusting Dresden, without ever even acknowledging that Butters' clear, explicit distrust in Dresden created the situation in the first place?
Is placing a secret tracking bug somehow more a sign of trust than agreeing to go with Dresden knowing he's not giving you information and putting your life in his hands?
--- Quote ---1] She tells him why she cannot be a Knight and wield a Sword..
--- End quote ---
Nope. She tells him why she isn't planning to bring a Sword. She never says she "cannot" be a Knight and wield a Sword, just that she doesn't want to save the Denarians.
--- Quote ---2] She tells him he isn't in charge of the Swords anymore, she is, which wasn't true..
--- End quote ---
Then why does Harry not protest it? Why does Harry ask her instead of trying to assert his authority? Why does Harry never object to the idea of her having the Swords? The one time he does, she points out that he's not in the right frame of mind and Harry explicitly acknowledges that she is correct.
Please provide a quote of someone who says she's not supposed to have the Swords. You have been pushing that argument for years and have not once been able to provide an example of anyone actually saying so.
--- Quote ---3] Because she says this to him he has to alter his plans for the mission not knowing she is bringing the Sword anyway..
--- End quote ---
Harry asks about the Swords only after they're at the meeting place. That's a little late for him to "alter his plans," and when he came to ask Murphy for help, he came to ask Murphy for help. The conversation in which he recruits her does not include discussion about her bringing the Sword.
--- Quote ---It could be she merely lost perspective the last couple of years because of what both of them have went through... But it could also be a throw back to the Murphy we used to know in the earlier books, the cop that worked with but didn't fully trust Harry.. She came to trust him, but so much about him has changed since Changes, you might take Murphy out of the police force, but you cannot take the cop out of Murphy..
--- End quote ---
Murphy has clearly changed since those first books, especially in her view toward Dresden. I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge that.
--- Quote ---Yes, she loves him so says she trusts him fully, but there elements of Harry's life now that make the cop in Murphy raise an eyebrow and not fully trust, in spite of herself.
--- End quote ---
She doesn't have to say she trusts him fully.
Her actions throughout both Cold Days and Skin Game show conclusively that she absolutely does trust him fully. The idea that she doesn't is not evidenced in the books.
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