The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
wyltok:
I don't recommend spending too much time focusing on the real world definition of a saint: the main requirement is being dead. This whole topic sprung up due to a WoJ about Saints (+ mobs) vs. Blampire Elders. I'm assuming we're all working from the idea that the Saints are involved in fighting the Blampires before their death, no? Or, at the very least, up to the moment of their death...
My proposal: let's ignore labels for now. The question is, if TWG wanted to provide Divine Intervention to help take out someone like a Blampire, what would they need? Is TWG (and his organization) limited to only acting through the wielders of the Swords? Can they go beyond that? Per the rules of thaumaturgy, External Power requires a sympathetic connection. What kind of person can be used to channel a Miracle? Would being a conduit to a Miracle change the nature of the person in the future? The way they act (probably increases their faith)?
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Rasins on June 15, 2017, 08:12:50 PM ---I agree, and that's why there is the distinction between upper and lower case S for saints. Per St. Paul, all believers are saints.
Only those who are recognized as having actually attained heaven are called Saints.
--- End quote ---
aha, but you couldnt tell which I was talking about simply because it started the sentence!! This is ANARCHY!! :P
If you want levels, can we please try to fit it into the Venerated/Beautified/Saint terms for as long as we can?
Quantus:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 15, 2017, 08:52:45 PM ---My proposal: let's ignore labels for now. The question is, if TWG wanted to provide Divine Intervention to help take out someone like a Blampire, what would they need? Is TWG (and his organization) limited to only acting through the wielders of the Swords? Can they go beyond that? Per the rules of thaumaturgy, External Power requires a sympathetic connection. What kind of person can be used to channel a Miracle? Would being a conduit to a Miracle change the nature of the person in the future? The way they act (probably increases their faith)?
--- End quote ---
I like where your head is at, but I sorta feel funny about trying to model Sponsored magic as a Thaumaturgic effect.
Mira:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 15, 2017, 08:52:45 PM ---I don't recommend spending too much time focusing on the real world definition of a saint: the main requirement is being dead. This whole topic sprung up due to a WoJ about Saints (+ mobs) vs. Blampire Elders. I'm assuming we're all working from the idea that the Saints are involved in fighting the Blampires before their death, no? Or, at the very least, up to the moment of their death...
My proposal: let's ignore labels for now. The question is, if TWG wanted to provide Divine Intervention to help take out someone like a Blampire, what would they need? Is TWG (and his organization) limited to only acting through the wielders of the Swords? Can they go beyond that? Per the rules of thaumaturgy, External Power requires a sympathetic connection. What kind of person can be used to channel a Miracle? Would being a conduit to a Miracle change the nature of the person in the future? The way they act (probably increases their faith)?
--- End quote ---
Well, we've seen that with only one person really, that would be Michael. With or without a Sword, he seems to be all that you say.. Though according to both Michael and Father Forthill, Harry is close to fitting that mold as well, though he'd argue that he isn't even close..
Quantus:
From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane. By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.
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