The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 15, 2017, 09:02:23 PM ---From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane. By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.
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On the other hand, he was also at exactly the right place and the right time to babysit Michael's kids when Michael and Harry needed to rescue Charity in Grave Peril. That does seem to qualify as Divine Intervention, even if it isn't sponsored magic per se.
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 15, 2017, 08:58:16 PM ---I like where your head is at, but I sorta feel funny about trying to model Sponsored magic as a Thaumaturgic effect.
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My first instinct usually is to assume the same rules apply for everyone, and the differences are a function of scale, rather than different rules for different people. So, I'm basically proposing that while Father Forthill can serve as an instrument for TWG, someone whoes personality and lifestyle isn't as aligned with TWG couldn't have been moved to be in the right place at the right time.
Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?
...huh, after writing that, I suddenly realize that I'm basically applying the Fae model to TWG, aren't I? By which I mean, that Fae Queens can't kill people who aren't somehow connected to the Courts.
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 15, 2017, 09:02:23 PM ---From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane. By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.
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Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?
Rasins:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 15, 2017, 09:19:01 PM ---Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?
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I'd say so. I'd say Thomas just "deciding" to follow Harry around in PG may have been TWG's influence. I mean why else would he do it. Or Molly, when she "snuck in" to the morgue, but was able to pull the pleasure death. Or, when Harry got pissed, ground out his energy and it ended up blowing Murphy's car up. All coincidences, but all could be the influence of TWG.
--- Quote ---Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?
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I think he could give his grace to anyone, but I think he only trusts very few. Micheal is this generation.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 15, 2017, 09:19:01 PM ---On the other hand, he was also at exactly the right place and the right time to babysit Michael's kids when Michael and Harry needed to rescue Charity in Grave Peril. That does seem to qualify as Divine Intervention, even if it isn't sponsored magic per se.
My first instinct usually is to assume the same rules apply for everyone, and the differences are a function of scale, rather than different rules for different people. So, I'm basically proposing that while Father Forthill can serve as an instrument for TWG, someone whoes personality and lifestyle isn't as aligned with TWG couldn't have been moved to be in the right place at the right time.
Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?
...huh, after writing that, I suddenly realize that I'm basically applying the Fae model to TWG, aren't I? By which I mean, that Fae Queens can't kill people who aren't somehow connected to the Courts.
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I think it would depend on the actual nature of the manipulation, I'd suspect, because Free Will and Choice are paramount to TWG's side. The babysitting bit (or any of the Knight coocidence events) would (I suspect) get a pass because those individuals have, as part of their Faith, given TWG /permission/ to do such things. I know the wording of my own Baptism back in the day would fit, and I suspect Confirmations and whatnot are pretty similar, and the Vows of a priest even moreso. But on the flip-side, if TWG were to fiddle with weather or the timing of a Traffic light or something that might be allowable, if it doesnt negate anyone's Choices.
--- Quote ---Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?
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With Shiro gone, I dont think Id trust anyone currently on stage with the Grace. However I dont think it would be cosmically limited by compatibility, given his level of Power I think Uriel could cram it into whomever he chose, From Mister to Persephone to a Nic himself if he really needed to. The only limit I suspect there might be is that the bearer of a Grace must have/be a Soul, so mortals yes but NN spirits likely would not qualify.
Mira:
--- Quote ---With Shiro gone, I dont think Id trust anyone currently on stage with the Grace. However I dont think it would be cosmically limited by compatibility, given his level of Power I think Uriel could cram it into whomever he chose, From Mister to Persephone to a Nic himself if he really needed to. The only limit I suspect there might be is that the bearer of a Grace must have/be a Soul, so mortals yes but NN spirits likely would not qualify.
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I agree with most of this, however I doubt it would be risked even with someone whom Uriel or any archangel had absolute trust in unless the need for it was extreme.. Which begs the question of whether Mab, Marcone, Hades, and even Nic were being manipulated by a higher power so that the relics could be retrieved by Harry?
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 16, 2017, 03:14:45 PM ---Which begs the question of whether Mab, Marcone, Hades, and even Nic were being manipulated by a higher power so that the relics could be retrieved by Harry?
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I wouldn't say manipulated, when it comes to Mab and Hades, or even Nic. The WoJ below suggests pretty strongly to me that they all know the BAT is coming, and all the big players are doing high risk, high reward plans precisely because they know they will be needing things like the Relics and the faithsaber in the (from their perspective) very near future.
--- Quote from: 2012 Reddit AMA: ---stilleto929: There have been 3 times that Nicodemus has told Dresden that time is running out. In Death Masks, after capturing Harry, Nicodemus says, “Your history indicates that you are too dangerous to leave alive, I’m afraid – and I am on a schedule.” Then in Small Favor, in the aquarium, Nicodemus says, “…tempus fugit. For all of us.” Then again in Small Favor, in the boat, Nicodemus says, “Dresden, I truly regret this necessity, but time is growing short. I must act…” WHY would an effectively-immortal person be so worried about time?!? The first instance can be explained by having a plane to catch, but the others seem…unusual. Is Nicodemus’s concern about time significant? I.e. showing to the reader that he believes something BIG will happen soon, and he has to be ready? Or is this just a conversational ploy to move the plot along? Would appreciate any info you could give us about this issue. Thanks in advance! - Stiletto (Celia)
Jim: The clock is ticking, and the clued people know it. /Especially/ to someone a couple of thousand years old, it really feels like we've already hit the two minute warning.
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