The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
wyltok:
We may wish to use a "proof is in the pudding" mentality, and define Saints based on their ability to perform miracles. What separates Miracles from Magic? Magic appears to require some level of aptitude and investment from the one person doing the working. Miracles could potentially be defined as "magic coming from an external source". Of course, we know from magical theory that this would fall under thaumaturgy, that is, magic from a distance, instead of evocation.
Putting it together: a Saint is someone who can act as a thaumaturgic channel for a divine being who chooses to exert their power at a distance.
From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
- Grave Peril: When both Susan and Michael managed to ignite their crosses with holy fire to repel Mavra (something I'm not sure Susan could have usually managed).
- All sorts of neat stuff that happens to people wielding the swords. I suspect that's more the relics in question acting as thaumaturgic links, rather than the person, though.
Thoughts?
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 08, 2017, 04:32:05 PM ---From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
--- End quote ---
Also, Michael's prayers broke a mental binding from freakin' MAB in SmF. That can't have been a small thing.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 08, 2017, 04:32:05 PM ---We may wish to use a "proof is in the pudding" mentality, and define Saints based on their ability to perform miracles. What separates Miracles from Magic? Magic appears to require some level of aptitude and investment from the one person doing the working. Miracles could potentially be defined as "magic coming from an external source". Of course, we know from magical theory that this would fall under thaumaturgy, that is, magic from a distance, instead of evocation.
Putting it together: a Saint is someone who can act as a thaumaturgic channel for a divine being who chooses to exert their power at a distance.
From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
- Grave Peril: When both Susan and Michael managed to ignite their crosses with holy fire to repel Mavra (something I'm not sure Susan could have usually managed).
- All sorts of neat stuff that happens to people wielding the swords. I suspect that's more the relics in question acting as thaumaturgic links, rather than the person, though.
Thoughts?
--- End quote ---
This could work, lets chase that.
When first introduced it was mentioned that "Michael didn't come down into the lab with me because the whole concept of using magic without the Almighty behind it didn't sit well with him, regardless of what we'd been through together". I always thought this was an indication that Michael was entirely familiar with a farm of magic that /was/ more religious (as distinct from Harry views). Now, when Michael prays to God it's always characterized as being the very simple, humble and direct sort of Prayer, just asking for help without a lot of ostentatious trappings. And sometimes when he prays like that spectacular things happen. But other times he shouts Latin battle-cries and such to get the effects. I submit that when he is using Latin phrases to channel power, he is casting a spell using magic words as mental insulation as per usual; it's likely at least as unconscious a process as the Alpha's transformation has supposedly become, but I think it's still Magic (Not sure if it's Life Energy or Faith Energy, or some blending). By contrast I propose that those times he's prayed in the more simple way in English for a result we are seeing something qualitatively different, arguably the sort of "divine intervention" miracles that Saints are supposed to be able to request from on-high. Thoughts?
groinkick:
See these are the things I wonder aren't asked by people meeting Jim. So many of the questions are always the same. A Saint was mentioned in the book as an explanation for a curse. Jim mentioned them as taking part against the Black Court. I want to know WHAT a Saint is in the Dresdenverse. Are they endowed by power from TWG? Are they wizards that specialize in faith magic? Are they people who after dying return as some sort of angelic/mortal hybrid who can cross the boundaries Angels cannot?
Is a Saint in the Dresdenverse a mortal who by being associated with TWC (when he was mortal) was granted power, or obtained power by association?
Quantus:
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 08, 2017, 06:22:24 PM ---See these are the things I wonder aren't asked by people meeting Jim. So many of the questions are always the same. A Saint was mentioned in the book as an explanation for a curse. Jim mentioned them as taking part against the Black Court. I want to know WHAT a Saint is in the Dresdenverse. Are they endowed by power from TWG? Are they wizards that specialize in faith magic? Are they people who after dying return as some sort of angelic/mortal hybrid who can cross the boundaries Angels cannot?
--- End quote ---
Ya, but people REAALLLLY want to know if Justin is Dead, like Really DED-dead, you know, as it "Ded-DEAD" dead-dead. That's important too, right? :P
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