The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 26, 2017, 07:01:22 PM ---That's a different tack entirely: The Fallen /did/ give Harry a Manual, just one with a very steep subscription cost. :P
Uriel's side cares about Faith and Free Will, but the other side only cares as much as they have to, the rest is all Temptation Flavored.
--- End quote ---
Harry used Soulfire the first time without even meaning to. He didn't know he even had it. That tells me that faith isn't a requirement. The fact that he used Soulfire without even meaning to tells me that Uriel gave him some sort of manual. He helped him use it.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 26, 2017, 07:46:08 PM ---Harry used Soulfire the first time without even meaning to. He didn't know he even had it. That tells me that faith isn't a requirement. The fact that he used Soulfire without even meaning to tells me that Uriel gave him some sort of manual. He helped him use it.
--- End quote ---
I can go with that, it certainly fits how Harry describes using Soulfire thereafter, something like a place in his mind he goes to when he needs to access it.
huangjimmy108:
This is what I think.
In the world of the Dresdenverse and limiting the definition to the arcane aspect only, a saint is probably someone who regularly, consciously and directly channel the power of higher being without actually being invested with a mantle. Which is entirely different from faith magic.
Faith magic, as I understand it, is the result of humanity's willingness to have faith. It is the power that empowers thresholds and prevents ghost from crossing over the cemetary wall. It is actually just another form of magic aside from wizardry. The difference from channeling a higher power is this. People believes that being inside one's home is safe, and therefore the house has a threshold. By believing that the cemetary wall separates the living from the dead, the wall gains the power to resist ghost. There is no higher power involve. The belief of that many humans simply translate into power.
Harry has a mantle and soulfire is invested directly into him similar to a mantle, so he is not a saint but a knight. Michael and the other KoTC channel power via an artifact, so they are not saints either. Murphy channel an angel in book 12, but it is not voluntary, so instead of a saint it is more like she is being possessed. LTW's shapeshifting probably falls into the same line as Harry's soulfire investiture, so using my definition LTW is not a saint either.
Ft. forthill though is probably the closest to a saint we see on screen. In his blessings, Ft. Forthill can invoke power. He do it regularly and conciously. Actually, in book 3, when Michael face the rampires without ammoracchius, Michael invoke the same power, but since it is a one time deal and not regular he may or may not qualify. Oh, scratch it, Michael is a saint. He invoke that power in book 3, book 10 and book 15, especially in book 15 when he chase away Tessa. 3 times is regular enough for me.
In short, saint are a human / mortal who channels the power of higher beings. They channels power, but not invested with power.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 26, 2017, 08:01:11 PM ---I can go with that, it certainly fits how Harry describes using Soulfire thereafter, something like a place in his mind he goes to when he needs to access it.
--- End quote ---
Not quite, because he is in content fear of using it up, and though yeah, it has helped him, but. because he doesn't understand it or what it truly does it isn't as effective as it might be. That's what made what he did with Mother Winter effective, he says it himself, it isn't just about turbocharging a spell, which is what he did before. Also if you go back and reread the bit between Harry and Uriel in Ghost Story, that is about faith as well. Before Ghost Story, Harry had Soul Fire, but he wasn't sure he believed in people having souls. He questioned that, and it held him back even though he used Soulfire..
From Ghost Story;page 470
--- Quote ---"Souls" I said. "I mean, you wonder if they are real. Even if you believe in them, you still have to wonder: Is my existence just this body? Is there really something more? Do I really have a soul?"
--- End quote ---
Uriel answered him...
--- Quote ---Uriel's smile blossomed again. "You've got it backward, Harry," he said. "You area soul. You havea body."
--- End quote ---
Now the critical part, Harry begins to think;
--- Quote ---I blinked at that. It was something to think about.
--- End quote ---
I believe he began at that point to see himself as a soul in a different light, as he said a soul is something more than what Bob described it to be, in my opinion that requires faith, because the segment of Ghost Story is also the "what comes after.." Which is based on faith as Uriel told him..
wyltok:
--- Quote from: ClintACK on June 26, 2017, 02:11:36 PM ---So... could we say that Michael was a Saint in Skin Game, while he was walking around with Uriel's Grace?
Perhaps that's what a Saint is -- the risky (requiring mutual trust) move of temporarily handing an angel's grace to a free-willed mortal.
--- End quote ---
This is a very interesting idea! It would explain how a Saint could be credited with something as terrifying powerful as the Loup-Garou curse.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version