The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote ---So Harry's dedicated to his faith in the POWERS of creation, but he doesn't submit to them. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that he directly confronted a fundamental, willed aspect of those very "POWERS" of creation, "a fundamental power of the world" CD Ch. 32 and although he paid it respect, he absolutely refused to submit to it in when he threw off the will of Mother Winter in her cabin.
--- End quote ---
I know those passages, they among my favorites in the entire series and that isn'thow I read them..
Yes, Harry will pit his will against any power.. And he tried that when Mother Winter had him pinned down.. page 316 hardback Cold Days... Very much the old Harry...
--- Quote ---But I could defy absolutely anyone.
I could lift my will against that of anything, and know that the fight might be lopsided, but never hopeless. And by thunder, I was not going to allow anyone's will to stretch me out on the floor like a lamb to slaughter.
--- End quote ---
But, as he goes on there is a change from the old Harry, a hint of what Uriel intended he should learn on his soul's walk about in Ghost Story.. Harry says on page 316 " And then I crossed my fingers.." That in of itself is an act of faith.. One crosses one's fingers in hope that something wanted desperately will come to pass, not a formal prayer perhaps, but a form of prayer in my opinion, a hope, a prayer, a plea for good fortune..
Harry goes on to say.. "And I crossed my fingers and reached into me, into the place where a covert archangel had granted me access to one of the primal forces of the universe, an energy called soulfire.." I call that an acknowledgement
of a higher power... After all who is Uriel's Boss?
Then on page 317 He gives Bob's definition of what soul fire and how it works with the soul.. But then he says..
--- Quote ---Bob is brilliant, but there are some things that he just doesn't get. His definition was a good place to get started, but it was also something that was perhaps too comfortably quantifiable. The soul isn't something you can weigh and measure. It's more than just one thing. Because soulfire interacts with souls in a way that I'm not sure anyone understands, it stands to reason soulfire isn't just one thing either.
--- End quote ---
Then he says in that moment, he knew exactly what the soulfire did. It wasn't about simply supercharging a magic spell.
He goes on to say,
--- Quote ---I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---against the will of an ancient being of darkness, terror, and malice, a fundamental power of the world.
--- End quote ---
I argue that he did submit to the powers of creation, that is why he was able to break the bonds.. If he merely respected them as you say, then in my opinion he would have merely turbocharged his spell or will to break the bonds, but I don't think that would have been enough to do it.. He says outright that those powers are not quantifiable, and he took that understanding and cast it with everything he believed, was, and will ever be.. That broke the bonds... And note how special that moment was so unlike anything else we've seen with Harry pitting his will against something more powerful than himself...
--- Quote ---And the bonds and the will of Mother Winter could not constrain me.. There was a sharp, shimmering tone, like metal under stress and beginning to fail, but more musical, and a blinding white light that washed away the darkness and dazzled my eyes.
--- End quote ---
The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform in my opinion... It wasn't your garden variety wizard's spell..
Serack:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 22, 2017, 11:38:57 PM ---I argue that he did submit to the powers of creation, that is why he was able to break the bonds.. If he merely respected them as you say, then in my opinion he would have merely turbocharged his spell or will to break the bonds, but I don't think that would have been enough to do it.. He says outright that those powers are not quantifiable, and he took that understanding and cast it with everything he believed, was, and will ever be.. That broke the bonds... And note how special that moment was so unlike anything else we've seen with Harry pitting his will against something more powerful than himself...
The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform in my opinion... It wasn't your garden variety wizard's spell..
--- End quote ---
I see that categorically differently. That is not faith in an external higher power. That is faith in the power of everything he "believed, was and will ever be." Himself. His. Own. Personal. Power. Not power derived from something bigger than himself. No this power IS HIMSELF, his very being was cast into the crafting.
Yah, that's not garden variety wizardy, but it's not faith in the power of something on high either, and thus absolutely not a demonstration of sainthood.
Another tack: I'm not well versed on the RL cannonization process, but it is my understanding that it requires people attributing miracles to someone already dead and in heaven. The Miracle transpires because someone prayed to the candidate Saint, who is already in Heaven. Because they are already in Heaven, they are able to intercede directly to God on the prayer's behalf. The miracle happens, proving that the candidate Saint is in fact in Heaven talking to God. The critical factor for me in this discussion is that it's God who performs the miracle, due to the Saint's intercession, not the Saint performing the miracle.
So again. When you say "The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform" I must disagree. Vehemently.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 22, 2017, 08:16:21 PM ---I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity. Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system. They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.
i.e. one Saint might turn water into wine, while a Walī might not be able to based on his beliefs (unless he's an Alevi Muslim)
--- End quote ---
Makes sense. A faith based magic user might be able to summon fire because of their faith in Agni, India's god of fire, while holy magic might be different in nature.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Serack on June 23, 2017, 02:18:03 AM ---I see that categorically differently. That is not faith in an external higher power. That is faith in the power of everything he "believed, was and will ever be." Himself. His. Own. Personal. Power. Not power derived from something bigger than himself. No this power IS HIMSELF, his very being was cast into the crafting.
Yah, that's not garden variety wizardy, but it's not faith in the power of something on high either, and thus absolutely not a demonstration of sainthood.
Another tack: I'm not well versed on the RL cannonization process, but it is my understanding that it requires people attributing miracles to someone already dead and in heaven. The Miracle transpires because someone prayed to the candidate Saint, who is already in Heaven. Because they are already in Heaven, they are able to intercede directly to God on the prayer's behalf. The miracle happens, proving that the candidate Saint is in fact in Heaven talking to God. The critical factor for me in this discussion is that it's God who performs the miracle, due to the Saint's intercession, not the Saint performing the miracle.
So again. When you say "The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform" I must disagree. Vehemently.
--- End quote ---
And I disagree, while you state what is the usual definition of a saint as sort of an advocate in Heaven before God.. Sort of well, Ed was a good man and after he died I asked him to ask God to cure my dying cat, George, who had an incurable disease.. And George lived, it is a miracle ergo Ed must be a saint because he asked God to cure George on my behalf..
But what about in the saint's lifetime? I perhaps shouldn't have said it was the kind of miracle saints perform, because they really don't, they are instruments.. But it still comes back to faith and belief.. Harry is a believer whether he admits to it or not.. Take his rant at the Almighty in Small Favor as Michael is hurt and just before Uriel as "Jake" appears to him for the first time. Of all the gods and semi-gods in the series, the Almighty is never seen by Harry, the Almighty has never spoken directly to him, yet here is Harry in an empty room angrily ranting at God, because Michael is hurt and he feels that He allowed it, and He aught to do something about it... And guess what? Michael recovers.. Now you can argue that it wasn't because of Harry's prayer, but an equal argument can be made that it was.. Harry's rant, though perhaps not a prayer in the classic sense, was still a prayer, an angry plea to the Almighty to help his dying friend who works so hard in the service of Him.. Interesting timing that an archangel should appear at that moment isn't it?
His plea to Uriel in Changes, Harry pleas because he feels helpless.. Uriel's answer is what can be done with in the rules set down by Heaven have been done, the rest is up to him, his free will choices.. A few hints as well to set him thinking.
Then in the short story, "The Warrior," Uriel calls Harry just that... In the guise of Jake:
--- Quote ---" Do you think you haven't struck a blow for the light,. Warrior?"
--- End quote ---
Jake also says
--- Quote ---"Harry," Jake said, sighing. "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all. Not yet, anyway. Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one. Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."
"But Michael and I are literal guys," I said.
Jake actually laughed. "Yeah? Do you think we angled to have you brought into this situation because we needed you to beat someone up?"
--- End quote ---
Then Jake goes on to talk about the various "battles" being fought, but the main point here is, Harry as an instrument...
What are saints in their lifetimes? Instruments..
Back to the event in Cold Days with Mother Winter, I think you miss the point I was trying to make. If Harry was just pulling power from himself as you say, then he merely would of cast a spell and turbo charged it with soul fire and the bonds would have broken.. But that isn't what happened.. He now acknowledges that the soul is something more, that shows spiritual growth and why the moment is so beautiful.
Serack:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 23, 2017, 06:10:04 AM ---But what about in the saint's lifetime? I perhaps shouldn't have said it was the kind of miracle saints perform, because they really don't, they are instruments.. But it still comes back to faith and belief..
--- End quote ---
Ok, you seem to get the gyst of my point, but won't conceded the conclusion.
For formalities sake, I'll include a DF example that clearly answers, "What about in the saint's lifetime?"
--- Quote from: SmF Ch. 38 ---"Father," he murmured, humbly and with no drama whatsoever. "Father, please help my friend. Father of light, banish the darkness that he may see. Father of truth, expose the lies. Father of mercy, ease his pain. Father of love, honor this good man's heart. Amen."
Michael's hand felt suddenly red-hot, and I felt power burning in the air around him--not magic, the magic I worked with every day. This was something different, something more ancient, more potent, more pure. This was the power of faith, and as that heat settled into the spaces behind my eyes, something cracked and shattered inside my thoughts.
--- End quote ---
This is a Saint relying on his faith for a miracle and receiving it. From start to finish it is recognized by the Saint as coming from a HiP and not from his own power.
I won't say Harry is bereft of faith. But his power isn't based on his faith in a HiP. Something I consider a requisite for a "Champion Saint."
--- Quote from: Mira on June 23, 2017, 06:10:04 AM ---Back to the event in Cold Days with Mother Winter, I think you miss the point I was trying to make. If Harry was just pulling power from himself as you say, then he merely would of cast a spell and turbo charged it with soul fire and the bonds would have broken.. But that isn't what happened.. He now acknowledges that the soul is something more, that shows spiritual growth and why the moment is so beautiful.
--- End quote ---
I concluded that your point was clearly that it was the work of a miracle by a saint, since that's exactly what you said. And since I disagreed, I explained why I disagreed.
In case you missed my point earlier, the "something more" his soul is would be his very "Being." Himself. Who and What he is. Which he worded as "I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---" His power came from him. Special yes. Saintly no.
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