The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 22, 2017, 07:37:18 PM ---Can we say there's a class of Sponsored Clerics, of which Saint is the subclass for TWG's peeps, and Harry's faith in magic makes him a Cleric of Magic?
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I feel like this is a Rabbit hole we might be best to avoid. For me it would come down to the ill-defined Line between religious-Magic (which supposedly exists in the Council) and actual Faith Energy which Bob cannot perceive. The Fae Knight, for example, is being sponsored by an external source but is being fed the same Life Energy that Harry and Lea and everyone breathing uses, as opposed to the Sword stuff or supposedly a lot of the Real Soul-fire stuff.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 22, 2017, 07:58:21 PM ---I feel like this is a Rabbit hole we might be best to avoid. For me it would come down to the ill-defined Line between religious-Magic (which supposedly exists in the Council) and actual Faith Energy which Bob cannot perceive. The Fae Knight, for example, is being sponsored by an external source but is being fed the same Life Energy that Harry and Lea and everyone breathing uses, as opposed to the Sword stuff or supposedly a lot of the Real Soul-fire stuff.
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I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity. Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system. They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.
i.e. one Saint might turn water into wine, while a Walī might not be able to based on his beliefs (unless he's an Alevi Muslim)
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 22, 2017, 08:16:21 PM ---I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity. Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system. They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.
i.e. one Saint might turn water into wine, while a Walī might not be able to based on his beliefs (unless he's an Alevi Muslim)
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That Im entirely fine wiht, as those are all still firmly on the Religious Faith side of the line. It would be with non-religious, magic-based Sponsors like Winter/Mab that I saw the rabbithole in.
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 22, 2017, 07:37:18 PM ---Harry's faith in magic makes him a Cleric of Magic?
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Would you say that Magic makes a Choice when it answers Dresden's "prayers". If he does, then it's still a Miracle rather than Magic, and I see no problem with it. If there's nothing on the other side that judges the prayer and finds it worthy, then I don't know if I can buy into the idea of a Cleric of Magic.
On the other hand, WoJ is that Morgan's Athame isn't exactly sentient, but it's still both powerful and dangerous, so maybe I'm asking for something that isn't really necessary here...
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 22, 2017, 09:41:42 PM ---Would you say that Magic makes a Choice when it answers Dresden's "prayers". If he does, then it's still a Miracle rather than Magic, and I see no problem with it. If there's nothing on the other side that judges the prayer and finds it worthy, then I don't know if I can buy into the idea of a Cleric of Magic.
On the other hand, WoJ is that Morgan's Athame isn't exactly sentient, but it's still both powerful and dangerous, so maybe I'm asking for something that isn't really necessary here...
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What you're talking about is sponsored magic versus unsponsored magic. For sponsored magic, someone asks for something (prayer/ritual/etc) and a Power either makes its happen, or gives them the power to do it themselves. For unsponsored magic, someone either uses their own power, or uses the power readily available to everyone, to make it happen.
In my opinion, when Harry uses his faith in magic to deter beings repelled by faith magic, he's using a loop hole to make his spirit magic function in a way that mimics or duplicates the effect of faith magic. That would not make him a "Cleric" of sponsored magic.
The Cleric subclasses would simply be for different titles of different religions.
I'm not as quick as Quantus to dismiss Mab & Co. as non-religion magic, as I think there's still enough "Hecate" in them to potentially allow them to empower a believer. But I agree that the Sidhe Courts, as they currently exist, have little to do with worship (i.e. subservient/obeisant/reverent to a Power, which gifts some of their Free Will to the subject), which I think is integral to faith magic. (I do think that the Sidhe gain power through humans, but that's another matter)
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