The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
Quantus:
I need to summarize my current stance, just to organize my own thought more than anything. bear with me
Fact: Saints can Kick Ass. That's really the only thing we know for sure, that they can lead groups against Black Court scourges and at least one was enough of a challenge for Thorned Namsiel that it used a bunch of lethal strangulation spells as a distraction to pick one's pocket (as she did against Harry).
Assumption: Saints are Rare. This is based on the Real-world Usage where even Popes cannot be assumed to be holy and/or favored enough.
Assumption: Sainthood requires some HiP Sponsor
By these things I discount Forthill, Charity, Murphy, most Popes, and Anyone dead but not Better (like Jack).
I have two working definitions that are more or less equal but exclusive to each other.
1)Saint gets power via Super-dedication, IE Michael. The key bit of this side is that he has consciously willfully accepted the Faith of the deity and models his whole life after it (a level of...devotion? I see as different from the other more ambiguous or accidental Knights.
2)Saints get power for being Chosen by TWG &Co, IE Harry. The key bit here is that TWG's side decides you are worth sponsoring, more or less independent of your opinions on the matter (within the bounds of Free Will, naturally).
If #1 is correct, then Michael is the closest thing to a Saint we've seen, unless Forthill is hiding unknown depths of Practical Badassery. Harry and all other KotC would fall short, though Shiro is firmly a Martyr which is kinda close. Im willing to accept the DV Definition of Martyr as anyone who Takes On the Fate of Another(supernaturally) and Dies in their place, as Shiro did.
If #2 is correct, Michael and Shiro both might also qualify, unless Soulfire is the specific indicator/mechanism.
Holy PUP! I just realized that there is a completely separate possibility Ive neglected. Ive been framing the question as "what would qualify /a mortal/ as a Saint". What if that's not how it works, and you cannot Become a Saint any more than You can Become an Angel? What if instead Saint is the human Equivalents of a Foo Dog, a "a celestial being which chooses to give up its divinity (and immortality) to serve and protect in the mortal world. Part of being mortal is having offspring, who share in their progenitor's power." What if Mouse is the closest thing to a Saint, or the descendant of one?
How do you all feel about the notion of Saintly bloodlines? Defining Sainthood more akin to a diluted nephilim?
Serack:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 22, 2017, 04:33:43 PM ---Or perhaps we shouldn't using the "saint label" at all?
--- End quote ---
Jim's the one who used the "saint label" thus it's appropriate to the discussion of Jim's work.
--- Quote from: Mira on June 22, 2017, 04:33:43 PM ---I also disagree about Harry, he does have faith, that was demonstrated in Storm Front when his pentacle acted like a Cross would against Bianca because for him it is a symbol of his faith in his magic. Harry is dedicated to that faith..
--- End quote ---
Hmmmm, my opinion on what makes Harry's faith here different from a Saint's faith is subtle but IMO critical. My reading of the long LKH WoJ (admittedly only generally applicable to the DF universe as a thematic foundation, but not canon for Jim's writing...) is that in faith magic, properly applied to an enemy of the HiP (in the WoJ referred to as the Creator) results in the Creator intervening. Depending on the level of free will of the enemy, the quality of the faith in the HiP may be poor and yet still warrant intervention from the HiP.
In this possibly thematically relevant interpretation, the "saintly" faith is in a HiP with Will, and I'll further define "dedicated absolute faith" as submitting to the "Will" of this HiP.
Harry's Faith based vampire repellent, as explained in SF, GP, and a few other vampire encounters is in the POWERS of creation as an amorphous, non willed concept that he can and does wield with his own wizardly abilities. This is in contrast with my refined definition of a saintly faith which requires submittal to the Will of the subject the faith is put in. Something Harry generally doesn't do, except maybe the one time he claims to have had faith in TWG's coming through for Michael in PG.
So Harry's dedicated to his faith in the POWERS of creation, but he doesn't submit to them. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that he directly confronted a fundamental, willed aspect of those very "POWERS" of creation, "a fundamental power of the world" CD Ch. 32 and although he paid it respect, he absolutely refused to submit to it in when he threw off the will of Mother Winter in her cabin.
--- Quote from: Mira on June 22, 2017, 04:33:43 PM ---Not sure what you mean by HiP? Higher Power?
--- End quote ---
I was explicit in what I meant by that.
wyltok,
I'm reluctant to fit faith magic into the thaumaturgic model, but I don't necessarily think the model doesn't fit. My quibble is in saying that all sponsorship magic is faith magic.
There is something to the point that living by the codes of Winter Law affects Harry's efficacy of using Winter Power. OTOH, I think there this a reciprocal advantage to Harry retaining his free will vs it getting subsumed by Winter's nature. If it is possible for Harry to achieve some kind of harmony between retaining his free will and submitting to the nature of Winter, this would be ideal, but it may be that the closest thing to Harmony he can achieve is a constant, painful struggle between the two.
Quantus
Your #2 is interesting. I've suspected for a while now that Harry isn't a full on Saint, but that by the time the story's over, he may be, and this might be the mechanism. Although I think submittal to the Will of the HiP may still be key for a true saint.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Serack on June 22, 2017, 07:13:12 PM ---Quantus
Your #2 is interesting. I've suspected for a while now that Harry isn't a full on Saint, but that by the time the story's over, he may be, and this might be the mechanism. Although I think submittal to the Will of the HiP may still be key for a true saint.
--- End quote ---
I suspect a similar future path, to be honest. Though I could see a scene where Somebody informs a dumbfounded Harry that he's been a Saint for years, and was just too busy being afraid he was a Monster.
The thing that I like about the Harry/Soulfire definition is that it's something tangible while being something observable from the outside, as opposed to a definition needing an intimate understanding of the person's motivations, beliefs, or cosmological world-view. Which sounds like me hoping that Faith of all things would be more Objective, and thats probably futile. :P
Serack:
Just read this:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 22, 2017, 06:38:58 PM ---Holy PUP! I just realized that there is a completely separate possibility Ive neglected. Ive been framing the question as "what would qualify /a mortal/ as a Saint". What if that's not how it works, and you cannot Become a Saint any more than You can Become an Angel? What if instead Saint is the human Equivalents of a Foo Dog, a "a celestial being which chooses to give up its divinity (and immortality) to serve and protect in the mortal world. Part of being mortal is having offspring, who share in their progenitor's power." What if Mouse is the closest thing to a Saint, or the descendant of one?
How do you all feel about the notion of Saintly bloodlines? Defining Sainthood more akin to a diluted nephilim?
--- End quote ---
Ugg... In the back of my mind I was considering parallels between Saints and Starborn. Heck a Saint might be a Starborn who choses to Champion for the HiP...
Also, when I earlier used the term "Spectrum" of saintliness, I was thinking how everybody in the DF has some level of aptitude for Magic, kinda like singing or basketball, but only some are born with enough to be Council level skills, and that Saintliness may be similar...
The idea of Saintly bloodlines repels me though. Too divergent from what I'm willing to accept about RL I guess. But that's personal, and may or may not be relevant.
Griffyn612:
Can we say there's a class of Sponsored Clerics, of which Saint is the subclass for TWG's peeps, and Harry's faith in magic makes him a Cleric of Magic?
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version