The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote from: Serack on June 22, 2017, 01:47:08 PM ---By the way, I also want to say that although I find this line of theorizing very helpful, it bothers me because I can interpret it to mean that Proven Guilty Harry was a Saint of the Summer Court when he used Summer Fire to blow off half of the Winter Well Spring. Contemplation of Harry channeling Winter power brings up similar issues. IMO, my first requisite in reply 98 is a must for defining a Champion Saint, in that it requires faith and dedication to the HiP, something Harry lacks in both instances.
--- End quote ---
Or perhaps we shouldn't using the "saint label" at all? I also disagree about Harry, he does have faith, that was demonstrated in Storm Front when his pentacle acted like a Cross would against Bianca because for him it is a symbol of his faith in his magic. Harry is dedicated to that faith.. Not sure what you mean by HiP? Higher Power?
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Serack on June 22, 2017, 01:12:50 PM ---
* An absolute dedication to their faith in the "Higher Power" (hear after called "HiP"*) and absolute dedication of their life towards their saintly mission for the HiP.
* Demonstrated Sponsorship from a HiP resulting in ass kicking, that is wholly attributed and attributable to the HiP's will channeled through the Champion Saint and their faith.
--- End quote ---
In my mind, point 1 above could be described, from a strictly technical standpoint, as a person turning themselves into a conduit to thaumaturgic magic, no? Basically, living a righteous life in accordance to a HiP means that the HiP can pour Power into a saint to answer their prayers.
--- Quote from: Serack on June 22, 2017, 01:47:08 PM ---By the way, I also want to say that although I find this line of theorizing very helpful, it bothers me because I can interpret it to mean that Proven Guilty Harry was a Saint of the Summer Court when he used Summer Fire to blow off half of the Winter Well Spring. Contemplation of Harry channeling Winter power brings up similar issues. IMO, my first requisite in reply 98 is a must for defining a Champion Saint, in that it requires faith and dedication to the HiP, something Harry lacks in both instances.
--- End quote ---
On the one hand, if we compare what sometimes happens to the Knights, where they literally become nothing more than Instruments to a HiP to what Harry did with Summer's Fire, there does appear to be a difference, namely, that it took Dresden making a Choice.
On the other hand, Lily did wind up naming Dresden as an esquire of the Summer Court as a result of his actions, and did promise him that he could call upon them to grant him a Miracle of his choosing...
When contemplating Winter Knighthood, I find it interesting to note that the Mantle only works so long as Dresden follows Winter Law (their Commandments, as it were), and that the more Dresden allows the Mantle to shape his thoughts, the more he dedicates himself to acting in line with the Mantle, the more powerful he becomes. Make of that what you will.
Rasins:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 22, 2017, 04:33:43 PM ---
--- Quote from: Serack on June 22, 2017, 01:47:08 PM ---By the way, I also want to say that although I find this line of theorizing very helpful, it bothers me because I can interpret it to mean that Proven Guilty Harry was a Saint of the Summer Court when he used Summer Fire to blow off half of the Winter Well Spring. Contemplation of Harry channeling Winter power brings up similar issues. IMO, my first requisite in reply 98 is a must for defining a Champion Saint, in that it requires faith and dedication to the HiP, something Harry lacks in both instances.
--- End quote ---
Or perhaps we shouldn't using the "saint label" at all? I also disagree about Harry, he does have faith, that was demonstrated in Storm Front when his pentacle acted like a Cross would against Bianca because for him it is a symbol of his faith in his magic. Harry is dedicated to that faith.. Not sure what you mean by HiP? Higher Power?
--- End quote ---
THIS.
Saint, or saint, implies a faith in a religious manner. Harry's faith is not in a religious manner. His use of Summer Fire was not placing faith in summer, and being their champion, it was a tool he picked up and used.
On the other hand, living saints, the kind who lead mobs against monsters have their religious faith AS the source of anything their higher power wants to accomplish.
I would say that Michael, independent of his role as a KotC, is a saint. The kind who could and would lead a mob. I believe that Charity is the same, though her faith is a bit more .... grounded, so maybe not.
Applying the label to other situations can apply, but you have to remember that the basic label has to do with religious faith. So, Harry's use of MAGIC in SK is saint-like, but it was not Saintly.
Did I just muddy the waters more?
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Rasins on June 22, 2017, 05:35:19 PM ---Or perhaps we shouldn't using the "saint label" at all? I also disagree about Harry, he does have faith, that was demonstrated in Storm Front when his pentacle acted like a Cross would against Bianca because for him it is a symbol of his faith in his magic. Harry is dedicated to that faith.. Not sure what you mean by HiP? Higher Power?
THIS.
Saint, or saint, implies a faith in a religious manner. Harry's faith is not in a religious manner. His use of Summer Fire was not placing faith in summer, and being their champion, it was a tool he picked up and used.
On the other hand, living saints, the kind who lead mobs against monsters have their religious faith AS the source of anything their higher power wants to accomplish.
I would say that Michael, independent of his role as a KotC, is a saint. The kind who could and would lead a mob. I believe that Charity is the same, though her faith is a bit more .... grounded, so maybe not.
Applying the label to other situations can apply, but you have to remember that the basic label has to do with religious faith. So, Harry's use of MAGIC in SK is saint-like, but it was not Saintly.
Did I just muddy the waters more?
--- End quote ---
I really dont think Charity makes it to the level Id expect. I know she is able to make a Cross glow, but so was Susan and I dont think anyone really expects her to be a Saint. If a relative commoner like her can do it, it's not the sort of rare Empowerment that fits the Champion of Man image, at least for me (I hate it when I dont have a b3etter argument than "It doesnt Feel right")
Rasins:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 22, 2017, 06:04:01 PM ---I really dont think Charity makes it to the level Id expect. I know she is able to make a Cross glow, but so was Susan and I dont think anyone really expects her to be a Saint. If a relative commoner like her can do it, it's not the sort of rare Empowerment that fits the Champion of Man image, at least for me (I hate it when I dont have a b3etter argument than "It doesnt Feel right")
--- End quote ---
No, I get it. And I agree, though Charity has demonstrated her "power" in other places. In SK when she prays before going to Winter, Harry comments on the power he feels from her simple words.
Now that may not be Saint level power, but it's definitely Saintly.
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