The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote ---So there is my definition of a DF Saint of Power. Someone who has incredibly steadfast faith in a "Higher Power." This person has become a Champion of the Higher Power, and thus they become a channel whereby their power influences the mortal realm, doing holy deeds and miracles.
--- End quote ---
We've seen Michael do this, most likely he could do it without holding a Holy Sword.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Serack on June 21, 2017, 07:38:26 PM ---The line I'm remembering was when Harry asked Father Forthill about him in chapter 27 of DM (page 235 of my ebook). Unfortunately I remembered it wrong and it makes no mention of Saints.
There's a really long WoJ from WAY back in the day on the LKH forums that on these forums would border on TT for religious reasons. It goes heavily into his ideas on how faith sponsorship might work in repelling demons/vampires, accounting for different levels and kinds of faith in a higher power. I think it's highly relevant to the discussion of "what Power," but I'll provide it once I'm done reading everyone else's posts and write my own, which I intend to make thick and meaty.
--- End quote ---
Quantus:
Serack,
Let me divert to a side question real quick, because this is something that has been bothering me. In GP Michael did not have possession of the Sword, but all his other normal/familiar Knight perks (divine babysitting service, anti-rampire touch, Power-prayer, etc) were still operating. So, is this an example of Michael having Power that is independent of his Knighthood, or is this an indication that the Bond between a Knight and his Sword is more lasting that just Not Holding it (or somebody else misusing it) Does the Sponsorship end at the hilt of the sword?
--- Quote from: Serack on June 22, 2017, 02:38:04 AM ---So there is my definition of a DF Saint of Power. Someone who has incredibly steadfast faith in a "Higher Power." This person has become a Champion of the Higher Power, and thus they become a channel whereby their power influences the mortal realm, doing holy deeds and miracles.
--- End quote ---
That works for me in the broad strokes, but Im getting tangled up trying to line that up with our examples; depending on your definition of "steadfast faith" that could still apply to most of the poll list. Does "Channel Power" mean white fire blessings like Michael does occasionally, or just getting a glow out of a cross? Soulfire? Does "Steadfast Faith" need to be real Belief like Michael's, or just hopeful cooperation like Shiro, Sanya and Harry? It is a personal Faith thing, or might ascension to Sainthood be dependent on the supernatural Enemy you face (as the LHK WOJ might imply)?
Serack:
Edit: Most of this post has been incorporated into my above post outlining my thoughts on the titular question. Unless you want to see how Quantus' thoughts shaped my articulation of the subject, you can skip this post if you read the above post after made the above edits. Which was before editing in this comment.
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 22, 2017, 12:16:56 PM ---Serack,
Let me divert to a side question real quick, because this is something that has been bothering me. In GP Michael did not have possession of the Sword, but all his other normal/familiar Knight perks (divine babysitting service, anti-rampire touch, Power-prayer, etc) were still operating. So, is this an example of Michael having Power that is independent of his Knighthood, or is this an indication that the Bond between a Knight and his Sword is more lasting that just Not Holding it (or somebody else misusing it) Does the Sponsorship end at the hilt of the sword?
--- End quote ---
Most likely, Michael is a pretty special case when it comes to Knights. The sword is powerful, and is a powerful tool he uses to fight evil, but it alone isn't where his power derives from, but his true faith, and his belief in his mission. Interestingly, according to him, his true mission isn't to slay evil, but to save free willed mortals doing evil from the influence of.... for lack of a better term, "the enemy." His kick ass capacity is just a facilitation of that true mission.
--- Quote from: Skin Game quote that exemplifies this ---You are asking me to make a very large choice."
"Yes," Uriel said.
"With potentially horrible consequences."
Uriel looked at him with sympathetic eyes and nodded.
"Can you tell me what is at stake, that I should risk this?" (Uriel's Grace)
Uriel frowned, considering the question for a moment. Then he said, "A soul."
Michael raised his eyebrows. "Oh," he said. "You should have said that from the beginning."
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 22, 2017, 12:16:56 PM ---That works for me in the broad strokes, but Im getting tangled up trying to line that up with our examples; depending on your definition of "steadfast faith" that could still apply to most of the poll list. Does "Channel Power" mean white fire blessings like Michael does occasionally, or just getting a glow out of a cross? Soulfire? Does "Steadfast Faith" need to be real Belief like Michael's, or just hopeful cooperation like Shiro, Sanya and Harry? It is a personal Faith thing, or might ascension to Sainthood be dependent on the supernatural Enemy you face (as the LHK WOJ might imply)?
--- End quote ---
Because I limit my definition of the question to power to kick serious ass against evil beings like Blampires via saintliness, glowing evil replant from a symbol isn't sufficient. The answer changes depending on how you chose to interpret the question, and is limited by our pitiful amount of information on the subject. I prefer to think that although there might be a spectrum of saintliness, Champion Saints (I think I prefer that to your usage of the Catholic saintly precursors, which usually are applied to those no longer walking among us) are different. And my thinking boils down to two major differences, which I may edit into my earlier post.
* An absolute dedication to their faith in the "Higher Power" (hear after called "HiP"*) and absolute dedication of their life towards their saintly mission for the HiP.
* Demonstrated Sponsorship from a HiP resulting in ass kicking, that is wholly attributed and attributable to the HiP's will channeled through the Champion Saint and their faith.Soulfire, although initiated by HiP Sponsorship, derives it's fuel from the bearer's own soul, not something external, thus differentiating it from the above definition.
Interestingly, Sock Puppeted Murphy at Chicken Pizza actually embodies most of the second point, except part of the conduit for the HiP's will is the sword. However, she doesn't truly meet the first criteria. *mumbles something about Mira's Murphy opinions*
The Knights other than Michael fall short because the Swords are part of the conduit of the HiP's will, and although I believe their level of power is partially defined by their dedication to their faith in the higher power, the ambiguity of their internally defined target of their faith costs them some level of steadfastness.
Michael has demonstrated Championship Power independent of the Sword, and absolute dedication to his faith and saintly mission.
*I just want to note that throwing around words with capital letters to refer to something like this, even in the setting of a theory discussion on a fictional setting makes me uncomfortable on multiple levels. Truncating to an acronym or something makes me much less twitchy, but TWG isn't quite broad enough for this theory IMO.
Serack:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 08, 2017, 04:32:05 PM ---We may wish to use a "proof is in the pudding" mentality, and define Saints based on their ability to perform miracles. What separates Miracles from Magic? Magic appears to require some level of aptitude and investment from the one person doing the working. Miracles could potentially be defined as "magic coming from an external source". Of course, we know from magical theory that this would fall under thaumaturgy, that is, magic from a distance, instead of evocation.
Putting it together: a Saint is someone who can act as a thaumaturgic channel for a divine being who chooses to exert their power at a distance.
From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
- Grave Peril: When both Susan and Michael managed to ignite their crosses with holy fire to repel Mavra (something I'm not sure Susan could have usually managed).
- All sorts of neat stuff that happens to people wielding the swords. I suspect that's more the relics in question acting as thaumaturgic links, rather than the person, though.
Thoughts?
--- End quote ---
By the way, I also want to say that although I find this line of theorizing very helpful, it bothers me because I can interpret it to mean that Proven Guilty Harry was a Saint of the Summer Court when he used Summer Fire to blow off half of the Winter Well Spring. Contemplation of Harry channeling Winter power brings up similar issues. IMO, my first requisite in reply 98 is a must for defining a Champion Saint, in that it requires faith and dedication to the HiP, something Harry lacks in both instances.
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