The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote ---In case you missed my point earlier, the "something more" his soul is would be his very "Being." Himself. Who and What he is. Which he worded as "I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---" His power came from him. Special yes. Saintly no.
--- End quote ---
"Everything he believed," is the key word here.. Faith, belief, that is what separates Harry from the other wizards he knows.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 23, 2017, 01:50:19 PM ---"Everything he believed," is the key word here.. Faith, belief, that is what separates Harry from the other wizards he knows.
--- End quote ---
I kind of feel like there isnt really much support for Either of those assertions. Harry is not, by any rational definition Ive heard, a Man of Faith; he's shown instances of faith, but it is by no means a defining trait of his. And we have Zero information on what sort of Faith the other wizards have, aside from Harry repeated mentions most do not actively reject all the religious trapping of Magic the way he does; otherwise LTW is the closest thing to a data point we have, and he definitely involves his deities more (if not full Blessing Way clergy).
Serack:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 23, 2017, 01:50:19 PM ---"Everything he believed," is the key word here.. Faith, belief, that is what separates Harry from the other wizards he knows.
--- End quote ---
Belief being a foundation of a wizard's magic is universal, not special to Harry. This was established in the second chapter of the series, and has been emphasized multiple times since.
--- Quote from: SF Ch. 2 ---"What makes you say that Harry?"
"The way magic works. Whenever you do something with it, it comes from inside you. Wizards have to focus on what they're trying to do, visualize it, believe in it, to make it work. You can't make something happen that isn't part of you, inside.
--- End quote ---
"Everything I was" included much more than his beliefs (he gave a whole list!), and any faith he has that is relevant to sainthood (what this topic is about) is a very limited portion of "Everything he believed." Focusing on faith and belief as what makes the spell in the CD passage special is WAY overly narrow.
I fear the point of our conversation has drifted, so I want to check back on that. Are you advocating for Harry's status as a Saint based off of your interpretation of this passage? Please make sure I understand what conclusion you advocating. I feel like I'm quibbling over details and the foundational conclusion has drifted while I was looking the other direction.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Serack on June 23, 2017, 03:15:30 PM ---Belief being a foundation of a wizard's magic is universal, not special to Harry. This was established in the second chapter of the series, and has been emphasized multiple times since.
"Everything I was" included much more than his beliefs (he gave a whole list!), and any faith he has that is relevant to sainthood (what this topic is about) is a very limited portion of "Everything he believed." Focusing on faith and belief as what makes the spell in the CD passage special is WAY overly narrow.
I fear the point of our conversation has drifted, so I want to check back on that. Are you advocating for Harry's status as a Saint based off of your interpretation of this passage? Please make sure I understand what conclusion you advocating. I feel like I'm quibbling over details and the foundational conclusion has drifted while I was looking the other direction.
--- End quote ---
That passage shows spiritual growth, the breaking of the bonds was different. Harry himself admits this, before Ghost Story he simply would have added some soulfire to his spell to break the bonds, this time he dug deeper involving his new understanding about his soul. It doesn't mean that Harry currently is a saint, but he could be headed in that direction.. Here are the facts, Harry consorts on a regular basis with an archangel, ordinary people don't do that, no other wizard that we know of does that... The only ones in the Dresdenverse that seem to are Knights of the Cross, in traditional parlance, having an archangel appear to you at all puts one in the running for sainthood. Harry was made custodian of the Holy Swords, for whatever reason, he is being used as an instrument for the selection of Holy Knights, even one night wonders... In contrast, Murphy claimed to be, but it was a matter of her taking it upon herself, not a job bestowed on her by the Almighty... At the end of Skin Game we see the custodianship returned to Harry.. That is another mark that eventually may lead to his sainthood.. He has managed to reject the influence of a Fallen Angel, and was rewarded with a gift from an archangel, that is another pebble on the side of eventual sainthood. The whole point is there is nothing to disqualify him from someday achieving this status, and lots of evidence that he could be heading in that direction. Becoming a saint isn't just externals or input from Powers on High, it is also about internals, if you've read anything about the life of saints, much of their struggles are about them, the internals, and how that affects their relationship with God.
--- Quote ---I kind of feel like there isnt really much support for Either of those assertions. Harry is not, by any rational definition Ive heard, a Man of Faith; he's shown instances of faith, but it is by no means a defining trait of his. And we have Zero information on what sort of Faith the other wizards have, aside from Harry repeated mentions most do not actively reject all the religious trapping of Magic the way he does; otherwise LTW is the closest thing to a data point we have, and he definitely involves his deities more (if not full Blessing Way clergy).
--- End quote ---
Yet in his own way, Harry is a man of faith, that is the basis for everything he is, his moral code.. I think Rashid is another wizard aside from LTW who shows a deep religious faith, or appears to be.
Serack:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 23, 2017, 03:55:17 PM ---That passage shows spiritual growth, the breaking of the bonds was different. Harry himself admits this, before Ghost Story he simply would have added some soulfire to his spell to break the bonds, this time he dug deeper involving his new understanding about his soul. It doesn't mean that Harry currently is a saint, but he could be headed in that direction.. Here are the facts, Harry consorts on a regular basis with an archangel, ordinary people don't do that, no other wizard that we know of does that... The only ones in the Dresdenverse that seem to are Knights of the Cross, in traditional parlance, having an archangel appear to you at all puts one in the running for sainthood. Harry was made custodian of the Holy Swords, for whatever reason, he is being used as an instrument for the selection of Holy Knights, even one night wonders... In contrast, Murphy claimed to be, but it was a matter of her taking it upon herself, not a job bestowed on her by the Almighty... At the end of Skin Game we see the custodianship returned to Harry.. That is another mark that eventually may lead to his sainthood.. He has managed to reject the influence of a Fallen Angel, and was rewarded with a gift from an archangel, that is another pebble on the side of eventual sainthood. The whole point is there is nothing to disqualify him from someday achieving this status, and lots of evidence that he could be heading in that direction. Becoming a saint isn't just externals or input from Powers on High, it is also about internals, if you've read anything about the life of saints, much of their struggles are about them, the internals, and how that affects their relationship with God.
--- End quote ---
I'll give you a Doyalist thing that makes the overall story arc less likely to end with him as a Saint. Jim has explicitly stated that the story outline had three possibilities for the power Harry could have reached for to save the day in Changes. The relevant one is Lasciel's coin. He's even shared an entire alternate plotline for how things could have rolled out from there. Now it's not impossible for him to turn from that and still become a Saint, (Nick acts like even he has potential) and thus not entirely disqualify him... but it sure makes it less likely in my mind.
Permit me to revisit my reason for bringing up that Cold Days passage. Harry (And WoJ) frequently describes his magic as manipulating the fundamental forces of Nature/Creation, but that these forces in his grasp are non sentient. I would like to posit that a true HiP in the DF is the willed, sentient being that represents the fundamental forces that created reality behind the curtain of mortal ignorance. Now I'm well known for theorizing that this concept of willed creative force has a fractious nature with multiple identities/beings representing aspects of the whole, but the portion of Cold Days passage that I was concerned with when I brought it up in the first place is bolded below:
--- Quote ---I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---against the will of an ancient being of darkness, terror, and malice, a fundamental power of the world.
--- End quote ---
So here's my line of reasoning. And thus my point in bringing up the passage.
* Harry's faith magic is based upon his belief in the fundamental forces of magic / forces of life and creation. But not embodied by a higher will
* Mother Winter is literally a fundamental power of the world embodied by a will and sentient identity.
* Mother Winter has Authority over Harry because of choices he made.
* This means Mother Winter embodies a portion of the fundamental forces that make up Harry's magic, and therefore his faith, AND has direct authority over him. Said differently, Mother Winter is the embodiment of the Higher Power (HiP) Harry's faith resides in that has genuine authority over him.
* Harry meets his HiP and (understandably) pulls off the bit of magic we are so excited about in DEFIANCE of his HiP.
* Harry emphasizes that he is in control of his destiny, not his HiP a few pages later.
(click to show/hide)"You can take my body and run it like a puppet. You can kill me. You can curse me and torture me and turn me into an animal."
"You can destroy me. But you can't make me be anything but what I choose to be, ma'am."
Now Quantus argues for a mechanism for a DF mortal to become a Saint without absolute dedication to the HiP that uses them as their Champion. Lets call it the path to sainthood without Fidelity. I find this concept to be kinda oxymoronic, but intriguing anyways. Without it though, I don't see how the bulleted sequence of reasoning could represent a pebble on the side of eventual sainthood. On the contrary, before I contemplated Quantus' proposal, I considered it a resolute data point against Harry's candidacy for Sainthood, which is why I brought it up.
Which is why your arguing the opposite boggled my mind. Along with the mountain of quibbles I've responded with that is.
Excellent point about Rashid by the way.
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