The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Nemesis is different
agrabes:
--- Quote from: kazimmoinuddin on June 01, 2017, 01:41:03 AM ---What if nemesis is something that was once human, but went through some kind of Ascension ritual. Similar to the dark hollow, but instead of based in necromancy, it was based on outsiders or magical corruption. So it is not a being reaching in acting as a bridge, it is a bring reaching out acting as a bridge.
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Aren't the Outsiders described in the books as essentially beings from another dimension? Not necessarily all evil, but just so strange and with completely different moral views and motivations that they seem evil to most people on the "in" side of the Outer Gates. The idea that Outsiders were once part of the Earth or NeverNever seems contrary to what's been said "on screen". It's definitely possible that the characters knowledge of Outsiders is wrong, but it just doesn't fit the theme of the story. Everything in the story is setting up to be a battle for the Outer Gates, with the outsiders locked outside the Outer Gates, but wanting to get in. If it was possible for people to slip across like that, it would undermine the entire premise of the story.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: agrabes on June 01, 2017, 03:14:22 PM ---Aren't the Outsiders described in the books as essentially beings from another dimension? Not necessarily all evil, but just so strange and with completely different moral views and motivations that they seem evil to most people on the "in" side of the Outer Gates. The idea that Outsiders were once part of the Earth or NeverNever seems contrary to what's been said "on screen". It's definitely possible that the characters knowledge of Outsiders is wrong, but it just doesn't fit the theme of the story. Everything in the story is setting up to be a battle for the Outer Gates, with the outsiders locked outside the Outer Gates, but wanting to get in. If it was possible for people to slip across like that, it would undermine the entire premise of the story.
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They are described more as Outside /all/ reality, outside the whole multiverse. Rather than a parallel dimension of the multiverse, "outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy." (WOJ, 2015) They were there before Creation got going, and are trying to return things to that nice clean primordial state. JB described them as the "generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd" (WOJ). Also, just like Bram Stoker on the Black Court Vampires, HP Lovecraft's work are considered real works based on actual secret knowledge in the setting.
groinkick:
One reason I think Nemesis is connected to Wizards is because it reminds me a lot of like what Molly did to her boyfriend when she mind controlled him. Not only did she control him but the end result of such control is insanity of the person being controlled. The way it "spreads" is like a wizard creating a conduit between himself and the one they want to control. That first link was the Athame, provided by Cowl and the Black Council. Nemesis didn't just start controlling people, it needs a connection of some kind. Again this sounds a lot like a wizard to me or group of them.
The more I think about it the more I think that the Black Council is a group of spell casters that create a link between themselves and their target, and working together overpower the mind, and bend to their will... Nemesis, the Adversary are actually a cult of dark wizards who's goal is to become the rulers of reality. Perhaps Merlin created the White Council because of the Black Council. That could mean the Black Council has existed before the White Council...
agrabes:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 01, 2017, 05:35:36 PM ---They are described more as Outside /all/ reality, outside the whole multiverse. Rather than a parallel dimension of the multiverse, "outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy." (WOJ, 2015) They were there before Creation got going, and are trying to return things to that nice clean primordial state. JB described them as the "generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd" (WOJ). Also, just like Bram Stoker on the Black Court Vampires, HP Lovecraft's work are considered real works based on actual secret knowledge in the setting.
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Right, thanks that is a much better description of what I was trying to say. Essentially, there are many, many monsters, evil beings, and dark gods of various mythologies that exist "inside" the Dresdenverse. Separate from all those incredibly powerful evil or amoral beings are the Outsiders, who have their own desires to essentially destroy the universe.
My point in all that is that it doesn't really make sense that people could cross over back and forth between the "outside" and "inside". A lot of people in this thread are suggesting that a human (or other being of the Dresdenverse) could somehow move beyond the Outer Gates or even go back and forth at will. That doesn't really jive with what we know of the Outsiders. If you could go back and forth that easily, it would have already been done en masse and the world would have been destroyed by the flood of Outsiders. Maybe there is a plot twist that what we think are Outsiders influencing the real world are actually just a group of "Insiders" who have some kind of evil cult that want to open the gates and have no contact with or influence from the true Outsiders, but I think that would be kind of a lame plot twist personally.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: agrabes on June 01, 2017, 06:59:58 PM ---Right, thanks that is a much better description of what I was trying to say. Essentially, there are many, many monsters, evil beings, and dark gods of various mythologies that exist "inside" the Dresdenverse. Separate from all those incredibly powerful evil or amoral beings are the Outsiders, who have their own desires to essentially destroy the universe.
My point in all that is that it doesn't really make sense that people could cross over back and forth between the "outside" and "inside". A lot of people in this thread are suggesting that a human (or other being of the Dresdenverse) could somehow move beyond the Outer Gates or even go back and forth at will. That doesn't really jive with what we know of the Outsiders. If you could go back and forth that easily, it would have already been done en masse and the world would have been destroyed by the flood of Outsiders. Maybe there is a plot twist that what we think are Outsiders influencing the real world are actually just a group of "Insiders" who have some kind of evil cult that want to open the gates and have no contact with or influence from the true Outsiders, but I think that would be kind of a lame plot twist personally.
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Well, the only known way to get past/around the Gates is to be Summoned from the Inside specifically by Mortal Magic, so in that sense there is passage. I know some have speculated that the BAT will feature an actual Raid on the Outside for some reason, though every time Ive seen that mentioned it usually hinged on some as-yet-unseen power/significance of a Starborn to make it happen (or the Winter Knight, with Winter being the Anti-Outsider force).
I think the instances in this topic were less about creatures being able to move back and forth with any sort of Freedom, and more the question of Which fence things are getting kicked over when consigned to "Oblivion". In that sense I agree with you that The Outside is something separate, and something that would take much more specific circumstances to get past, in either direction.
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