The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Nemesis is different
groinkick:
Something occurred to me that I found a little odd about Nemesis. In the Oblivion war the idea is removing all the Names of the Old Ones, removing their connection to reality. The more modern gods gained power from worship, praise, and generally the population believing in them. In both cases these Beings gain power from knowledge of their existence. Nemesis is the exact opposite though. Harry is told that Nemesis kills anyone with knowledge of it's existence. Isn't that a little strange? What is it that causes this difference?
I had a couple ideas:
1. Nemesis is somehow the opposite, and gains power from lack of knowledge of it's existence. Can't explain why it would work like this. Maybe it's latched on to people's belief in the unknown, and their fear of it. So it's powered by being unknown.
2. Nemesis is in fact a mortal wizard. I actually think this is possible. The Old Ones have been around since like forever, so have the Outsiders. Nemesis in my opinion (unless there are WoJ, or in book info I don't remember) a mystery. Do we know how long it's actually been in play? It might only have been around for fifty years, or a few hundred, or a thousand. Even if it's longer than a thousand years, a dark wizard can probably find ways to extend their lives similar to Kemmler's practices, or simply by obtaining a Mantle that keeps them alive. If this is the case then Nemesis can really break the rules effectively, and that's why people like Mab are so terrified by it. A wizard doesn't have to play by the same rules, and if said wizard has obtained some really dark power they can do some major damage. If this is the case I'd guess it's a really powerful, Starborn wizard that's gone full dark side.
What do you think?
Quantus:
My understanding of both those things was slightly different, but it comes down to the Idea that Oblivion is still "Inside". The Oblivion War mechanism is not in itself about gaining power (at least not directly) but rather about having an anchor to the Mortal World; with any mortals with the awareness, they were cut loose (theoretically with their current Power intact) and would be left adrift with no way to affect the Mortal World. This would be separate from however they amassed their Power in the first place (Faith-systems seem to be one, but more violent ways like the Darkhallow exist too). But I see Oblivion as part of the NN, just a part that is unreachable because it does not "resonate" with any part of the Mortal World at all, thus it is impossible to reach by Way, some sort of infinity endless doldrum.
Nemesis and the Outsiders, by contrast, are facing a different obstacle in The Outer Gates. They are trying to Get Inside (of which Oblivion would be the worst possible thing that would still qualify), and unless they get past Rashid they have to be summoned specifically by a Mortal. But given The Sleepers as introduced directly in Cold Case, and their current prison, I have doubts that they'd be subject to the same sort of Anchor requirement; theirs isnt an issue of getting to the Mortal Worlds from teh NN, its to get to the World as a whole from Outside, and once they make it inside I dont think they require the same anchor to Mortal Consciousness that a NN spirit/godling/etc does. But I have nothing but abstract conjecture to support that.
Also something I cant escape: From a purely Doyistic perspective, since I expect The Outsider war and the Outer Gates to take center stage on the BAT, and we were given the explanation of the true Oblivion war specifically because JB didnt expect it to come up, I dont think the Oblivion War is going to have much relevance to Nemesis. But that's not a good way to enjoy crack-theory, so ignor that entirely please :P
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: Quantus on May 31, 2017, 06:19:37 PM ---But given The Sleepers as introduced directly in Cold Case, and their current prison, I have doubts that they'd be subject to the same sort of Anchor requirement; theirs isnt an issue of getting to the Mortal Worlds from teh NN, its to get to the World as a whole from Outside, and once they make it inside I dont think they require the same anchor to Mortal Consciousness that a NN spirit/godling/etc does. But I have nothing but abstract conjecture to support that.
--- End quote ---
As I understand it, the Outsiders are the Sleepers' minions, cut off from their rulers and trying to get back to them (and maybe, specifically, to wake them up?).
I'm not sure whether beings kicked out of the world by the Archive deleting the last awareness of their existence go to a NN pocket dimension, go Outside and join the original Sleeper loyalists for the sake of common cause, or end up 'asleep' in not-particularly-special parts of the NN (like Harry tried to explain to Charity in PG that a lot of the pagan gods that humanity still has awareness of were real, but for practical purposes inactive due to timey-wimey reasons).
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on May 31, 2017, 07:00:05 PM ---As I understand it, the Outsiders are the Sleepers' minions, cut off from their rulers and trying to get back to them (and maybe, specifically, to wake them up?).
--- End quote ---
That's more or less my understanding as well, with the caveat that I think there are still Sleeper contemporaries ("Old Ones"?) in the Outside as well, so the Outside Forces arent leaderless or anything, just missing some of their ruling Number.
--- Quote ---I'm not sure whether beings kicked out of the world by the Archive deleting the last awareness of their existence go to a NN pocket dimension, go Outside and join the original Sleeper loyalists for the sake of common cause, or end up 'asleep' in not-particularly-special parts of the NN (like Harry tried to explain to Charity in PG that a lot of the pagan gods that humanity still has awareness of were real, but for practical purposes inactive due to timey-wimey reasons).
--- End quote ---
Im fairly confident (overconfident might be a better description :P) that it's not Option #2
Rasins:
I think the bottom line is that Nemesis is not dependent on mortal belief to exist or gain power. It's power is from OUTSIDE, and therefore the Oblivion war would have no effect on it.
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